May 21, 2003
The Matrix: Reloaded, an Explanation

Damion and I spent an entire afternoon dissecting The Matrix: Reloaded, and what the various bits meant. In that vein, I found this article (WARNING: major spoilers) in which someone else takes a crack at explaining what was going on.

I think some of his explanations (won't go into detail so as to avoid said spoilers) are a bit of apologizing for the director's self-indulgence, but others I think are bang-on.

But more importantly, I think this is just another example of TM:R being good science fiction. It presents us with riddles and rules, and by using the rules we can solve the riddles.

This won't make any sense at all if you haven't seen either movie, so if you haven't, go rent them and then come back and see if you agree.

Posted by scott at May 21, 2003 11:11 AM

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Comments

Try out this one, too. Seriously.

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Posted by: nvdoyle on May 22, 2003 01:26 PM

If zion is not another matrix then how can that chinese guy protecting the oracle exist? he says hes a computer program, but hes in the real world is'nt he?
And i dont really grasp the bit about choice in the film, they say that choice is the weak point to the matrix and neo is helping people have a choice etc. But i dont believe there is a choice or really a decision for the next film, as Neo tells trinity not to go to the matrix and yet she does. This to me shows that there is no choice as Neo had dreams of her getting shot, and this happens. This brings the idea to me that fate is already set for the next movie.
tell me if i'm wrong i may have missed summat as i have only seen it once.

Posted by: Keith on May 25, 2003 01:36 PM

"If zion is not another matrix then how can that chinese guy protecting the oracle exist? he says hes a computer program, but hes in the real world is'nt he?
And i dont really grasp the bit about choice in the film, they say that choice is the weak point to the matrix and neo is helping people have a choice etc. But i dont believe there is a choice or really a decision for the next film, as Neo tells trinity not to go to the matrix and yet she does. This to me shows that there is no choice as Neo had dreams of her getting shot, and this happens. This brings the idea to me that fate is already set for the next movie.
tell me if i'm wrong i may have missed summat as i have only seen it once."


the chinese guy is a computer program, as is the oracle, and the keymaker. thus it doesnt seem to matter if there are dual matrices. Trinity goes into the matrix to save Neo, because of the choice. She has a choice to either stay, she deliberately disobey's Neo's words to save Neo, then getting shot just as Neo dreams. But, the unexpected twist when Neo reaches into her via the matrix and starts her heart pumping again, i believe suggests that though there may be a "fate" for the next movie, Neo will do something to alter this "fate", just as he altered the "fate" of Trinity.

Posted by: me on May 25, 2003 03:36 PM

I had some elementary questions

1) why, if Neo is such a badass does it take him so long to hold off the people in the palace and the oracles bodyguard? Then, he can whup a kazillion of the agent smith types?

2)Also, why does or how does agent smith replicate himself? a virus I get it, but why not infinitely and not just a 100 or so. Also why did he (neo) choose to fight them so long and not just fly away immediately?

3)Also Neo stops bullets and holds off agent smith with fists and such, but why dont the gunmen just walk up real close to Neo and shoot, so that he can't just hold out his hand and stop it?

4)It seems in this metaphysical world/conundrum it would seem as if Neo or whoever else had "power" could just "will" destruction on the agents or whoever just like they could bend a spoon, or like in the last one, run inside of them and rip them apart "bit-by-bit"

I like the idea of the "sixth one" and how the machines and people are codependent on one another other than just the battery stuff, but it kind of gives a fatalistic tone to Neo at the end of the movie, I guess that is necessary and will be spelled out later, but the "to be continued" thing at the very end reeked of a cheesy brady bunch episode. Duh, theres a movie coming out in November! Just end it there. Argghh.

I think it was a little convoluted and peppered too much with cameos. Jada Smith- glorified cameo

Roy Jones Jr.?????? WTF??? why him? That was ridiculous.

I liked the movie but the philisophical aspects of this one were far below the first, or at least were convoluted. Maybe I'll like "Reloaded" more after seeing the end of the trilogy.

Hope

Posted by: noah on May 25, 2003 06:30 PM

ahahahahaha wankers laaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrssssssssssss

Posted by: jim fickface on May 25, 2003 07:34 PM

Some of you are asking really stupid questions. I.E. How could the chinese guy exist? Hes a program in the matrix. He never leaves the matrix, the hallway with doors is just a fast way of getting from place to place, it is part of the matrix. Also, why can't smith copy himeself more. This is because his program couldnt support that many extensions of himself. The original smith controls all of the copy smiths obviously, so he just isnt able to support that many copies. However, there were a few perplexing parts. For example, what was with that girl having the orgasm, why the keymaker exists, and what was with the whole 16 men and 7 women recycling thingamabob?

Posted by: Shimmy on May 25, 2003 10:57 PM

ok the best way i can describe the 16 and 7 thing is ... do you remember the part in one where Morphius said one man that was a product of the matrix was free and set the rest free? Everytime a new matrix is loaded the same thing happens the free person frees 16 and 7 to repopulate zion. well smith is a product of the matrix and is now free. He hated being traped in the matrix as an aent he only hates neo because neo took his cause.
and the woman in the resturaunt was only a way to show that people take the matrix in because it feels real.

Posted by: Chris on May 25, 2003 11:59 PM

There wasn't much to get from this flick, other than the visual pleasure. But that's nothing to sniff at. The multi-smiths were worth the price of admission.

Posted by: mark on May 26, 2003 05:26 AM

There wasn't much to get from this flick, other than the visual pleasure. But that's nothing to sniff at. The multi-smiths were worth the price of admission.

Posted by: mark on May 26, 2003 05:27 AM

There wasn't much to get from this flick, other than the visual pleasure. But that's nothing to sniff at. The multi-smiths were worth the price of admission.

Posted by: mark on May 26, 2003 05:28 AM

shimmy,
you made no attempt to answer my elementary questions except that somehow "smith's program couldn't support that many extensions of himself".

What kind of piss poor explanation is that? You just pulled that out of your ass. His "program" ideally doesn't support his autonomy nor his venture to "real world" either. Your explanation of why he couldn't infinitely replicate himself is not an explanation at all. He continues to hunt neo because his program originally commanded him to, not because he "hates" anyone.

My questions were simply poking at inconsistencies in plot and the physics of the worlds that exist in the movie. As for the oracle's "bodyguard" (the chinese guy) you aren't talking about the keymaker (he's korean) right?, He's no doubt a program in the matrix (as you say) but a 5 minute fight scene to test the loyalty and skill of neo, when the program itself knows the whole thing is set in motion anyway is just filler.

why a keymaker? He's explained like 500 times. He's a obsolete left over program that is being hidden by the Frogster. He's also there because Neo needs to get into the core, and the key maker is supposed to lead him to the architect, as part of the "plan" that is replicated repeatedly. There doesn't seem to be any possible full explanation until the trilogy is completed I feel.

Why don't you hone your understanding before you call someone's questions stupid.

Posted by: noah on May 26, 2003 08:51 AM

How is that neo can kill the machines at the end of the movie? if this is the real world out of the matrix.

Posted by: Grer on May 26, 2003 11:25 AM

When the architect says that there have been several Zions and that each time it has been distroyed and a new 'The One' is born, has it been Neo every time or is it a different person each time that it is re-created?

Posted by: Tart on May 26, 2003 12:31 PM

Well ...well
i saw this movie obviuosly and it was great eye candy....i left the theater cross eyed though.....I mean its so obvious why they shot the movie this way...with all the inconsistensies.....it is meant to corner the market so you will go see the next one....I mean the part with the doors near the end made me retarted....I understand the choice thing but Neo tells morpheus that the prophecy is bul shit....well he never went to the source to end the war he choose to save hot pants...It just seemed like they crammed to much into this one.....To many characters and side plots....i wish they would of made a more simplified longer sequal with more explanation of the characters and story line and cut out the third one all together ..... just sum it all up....but i guess you make more money the other way.....So if anyone can fill me in on the doors (choices)at the end, and what was with the twin ghosts......oh and the discussion with neo and the oracle about programs fighting each other and that makes people see vampires and ghost.....what?

Posted by: Matrix ..WHAT on May 26, 2003 12:46 PM

oh yeah one more thing......Why is there a
"one" born every time the matrix is recreated........thats pretty gay

Posted by: Matrix .. What on May 26, 2003 01:39 PM

Some notes:

To me, it looks like the story is another take on the free will vs. predestination debate that's been going on in the west for at least three thousand years. IMO, by always keeping this in mind, a lot more of the movie starts to make sense.

Noah (1st time):

1. Smith in his various incarnations was less challenging than the Merovingian's bodygaurds because the smiths were all the same, and fought the same, and he'd fought smith already. The bodygaurds were far more of a challenge because they were "rogue" programs (hence the need for the silver bullet earlier) with completely different fighting styles. Also, Neo was not just fighting to win vs. the bodygaurds, he was also fighting to allow Morpheus et. al. to escape. The oracle's bodygaurd is something completely different than any of the other programs. This is why I think they emphasised Neo's "code look", to show us that, whatever the bodygaurd is, it ain't normal.

2. Why does Smith replicate? Who knows? Because he can, or wants to, or is insane and just likes to use the copy machine a lot. How does he replicate? Again, a mystery. Certainly no other program we've seen so far is able to do this. Perhaps it is a special ability only he has. Why only a hundred or so? Well, the time it takes certainly imposes some limits. It appears that only one smith can make one copy at a time, and this might be a limit to his progression. There's also energy... we don't know how hard it is to make copies. It may be difficult in the extreme. There may in fact be millions of them now, but they'll be spread all over the matrix "world", with perhaps only a few hundred, or few thousand, within walking distance of each other at any one time. This dovetails nicely with the giant fight scene. Smith didn't know where Neo was going to show up, and it just took awhile to call in enough copies to get the job done. Remember also that Smith does not really know how powerful Neo is. If he did he probably would've planned the ambush better.

Why did Neo choose to fight them? That's an easy one... Neo didn't know how many there were. He's powerful enough to take on one agent, five agents, ten agents, twenty or more. They kept filing in while he was fighting them. It was only when he realized they were never going to stop coming at him that he realized it was exit time. Also, it would appear his flight power takes a second or two to, well, "energize", and he's very vulnerable at that time. It took him a long bit of fighting until he'd beat them back far enough to activate it and get out.

Why don't the gunmen walk up real close and shoot? The whole point of a gun is to kill at a distance. It's no good at all within, say, about two arm's lengths against someone who can move like neo can.

"Willing destruction" : Destroying an agent by that manner is *very* slow... took perhaps as long as a minute to do smith in that way in the first movie. Also, the "upgrades" the agents have been given perhaps (probably) have made them invulnerable to this particular type of attack. Neo also has not actually demonstrated the ability to bend a spoon. He discovers his powers as he goes along. Nobody's given him a manual.

Shimmy: The keymaster exists as part of an elaborate game the architect plays to manipulate Neo into meeting him and forcing Neo to make the decision nessesary to trigger the reload. It wouldn't do to have just anyone be able to walk in on the architect, but it must still be possible for Neo to do so.

Noah (2nd time): Smith may at one time have not been able to understand autonomy, but I believe for whatever reason he had come to understand it even in the first movie. This is why he removed his "earpiece" to have his little chat with Morpheus, and why the chat exists in the first place. Smith is probably one of the reasons the Matrix needs to be reloaded... like Neo, agents need to be very powerful, and very smart, to do their job. However, after they've been around long enough perhaps they start behaving erratically and begin to pose a danger to the architect and the matrix.

I believe he continues to hunt Neo for a variety of reasons, all more sophisticated than simply being "programmed" to do so. One, agents always get their targets and Neo was probably the very first to get away, and he got away on Smith's watch. Two, Neo's confrontation with Smith wrought profound changes within him (literally and metaphysically), and probably drove him insane. He's now fixated on Neo, perhaps he now believes that killing Neo will be the final step in his own transformation.

Grer: The machines are still attached to the Matrix, even the ones that move in the real world. Neo has somehow become connected with the matrix even when he's not "jacked in". That's how he was able to zap the machines.

Tart: It's Neo each time. The whole thing gets restarted and the part of Neo created by the architect starts trolling through the Matrix all over again to find more errors.

Matrix.. What: Recreating "the one" is the whole point of the movie, and probably the whole point of the series. The Matrix is, and probably must be, fundamentally flawed. It is unstable. The architect forsaw this as inevitable and so tried to find a way to minimize or at least control the instability.

I believe Neo has two parts... a "program" and a human. The program was created by the architect to troll through the Matrix and find the errors and instabilities, recording, concentrating, perhaps even absorbing them. For whatever reason, in order to finish its functionality the program must manifest itself as a human being. It must be "born".

The architect must manipulate the circumstances of the Matrix and the real world, playing a grand game as it were, in order to 1) free the one into the real world, 2) convince the one that he is in fact "the one", and 3) manipulate the one into making his final decision. By making "the right" decision, by choosing to save a handful of citizens of Zion, the program part of Neo delivers its payload of information. The one is probably then stripped of these powers and turned loose to help found the next Zion. That program part is then released into the restarted Matrix to gather information all over again.

Unfortunately by being born and becoming human its original function is subsumed by its own human nature. Here it is very important to understand the "free will" aspect of the story. As noted in the "mofo" article linked at the very top of this comment list, the machines and programs (with the possible exception of Smith) do not have free will, and hence don't believe anyone else does either.

They take a horrible risk manifesting such a monstrously powerful program as human, but they don't understand that risk, not completely. They count on us being more rational than we really are. Being presented with the choice of saving your girlfriend or saving humanity is, in the opinion of the machines, such a no-brainer even something as stupid as a human should be able to see it. And, for five iterations, it worked. Unfortunately, as with any good game of Russian roulette, when you're dealing with humans it's only a matter of time before one comes along that's too addled or obstinate or romantic to see the obvious. Neo chose the "wrong" door, and, at this point in the film storyline, probably nobody really knows what's going to happen next.

Posted by: Scott on May 26, 2003 03:04 PM

Hey Scott...I think you should go see it again because your really reaching at some of these points your making i dont mean to be rude but dude...you've really given this some thought....thats pretty gay....that part about a gun used for long distance killing....What war council where you at...remeber the first movie when trinity shot the agent in the head at point blank....and hmmm the agents move pretty fast....and she got him....so if there were hundreds of agents who can all move fast like neo (maybe a little slower) and they all jumped on him...like they did and started shooting him at point blank...we may have a dead neo.....Ill answer all you nit pick questions about the agent fight scene.....if they didn't do it the way they did it ...it wouldn't have made a very good fight scene...i mean if they shot neo and he died that wouldn't of been very good.....If Smith made an infinite number of himself than neo would have been beaten and that wouldn't have been very good.....So when you have a questions like ..."Why didn't neo fly away right away when the agents come...think......he didn't fly away because than we wouldn't have seen a fight....and the hollywood writers of the matrix wanted neo to fight lots of agents.......not to hard to figure out really

Posted by: Matrix..What on May 26, 2003 03:49 PM

Do you all have nothing better to bitch about except a movie that (obviously from the sound of it) you would of all rather of waited to come out on video for?

Come on people... it's Hollywood, they WANT to make money off of you. The WHOLE point of Sci-Fi is to make you think and speculate about everything going on.

Posted by: Ellen on May 26, 2003 04:54 PM

GOOD GRIEF! Thanks for the voice of reason Ellen. Some folks have way too much time and take Sci-Fi way too seriously! lol

Posted by: Pat on May 26, 2003 06:01 PM

Hi,

maybe I'm to simple minded to understand the whole story and how it makes sense somehow (if it is supposed to do so). But I'm simly unable to grasp it, or at least not entirely (who does?).
Although what has been written here explain some aspects or details and occasionally displays an incredible high level of weird phantasy as well as the ability of abstract thinking, none is fully satisfying to me.
Thus, I have a couple of questions that remain:

How the hell got Morpheus out of the Matrix at the end of the movie while fighting dozens of Smiths at the same time? By the way: Why did Smith and his gang of clones only appear when it seemed to fit the storyline? Where were they, for example, during the temple fight?

What was the sense of those Twins and their completely unconvincing end (death?) given their capabilities shown before?

What was the purpose of the "keymaker"?

And,ok, Neo is Neo, but how can he behave like Jesus Christ making other humans resurrect?

Does someone have an idea?

Posted by: Stephan on May 26, 2003 06:49 PM

About Smith. Obviously his contact with neo corrupted his original (whatever). So like a brain cell with DNA corrupted, it begins to wreak havoc. In other words, he's become a virus because he says: "I want the same as you. EVERYTHING."

Now, if I got everything right, Neo was an anomaly that kept happening for an unknown reason in the matrix. i.e. a subject which rejected the matrix program. The other "one" before Neo was the one that fred Morpheus and the others. That one did join the source and allowed to destroy the previous zion to create the new one with 27/16/whatever.

But yes, I still don't understand how Neo could stop the sentinels. Is the "world outside" the matrix another matrix (matrix v1, perhaps?) I doubt it. But I have the idea that Neo could stop them because:
a) As "the one", the matrix implanted some kind of EMP besides the standard hardware inside him? Let's remember that in the movie the body is seen as a battery - i.e. can generate energy. So maybe this is why, after using his implants to expell this energy burst (EMP), Neo fell in coma.

b) The sentinels had an EMP installed as default, that someone like Neo (or the architect via remote control?) could activate.

It is curious that they said only one survived the "masacre" (where was this masacre? Zion? I didn't understand that one) - and that happened to be Bane-Smith. So it makes me think that Smith stopped the sentinels just as Neo did. (Coincidence?)

About the backdoors, etc. This makes me think on what Morpheus said: Some rules can be bent. Others can't be broken (but hey... others CANNOT!)

Neo isn't all-powerful. He is still limited by some physical laws (i.e. the inability to kill the bodyguards instantly etc etc).

Again, we see that Neo can ONLY alter the "green code" inside the matrix. We are NOT shown what kind of code Smith is.

But one thing is certain: Smith can only copy himself to SENTIENT (thinking) entities / programs. Either humans inside (or outside) the matrix, or agents. This is why his limited capability to clone himself.

Posted by: Rick on May 26, 2003 08:04 PM

Hey Noah,
According to your comments, there wouldn't be any action or fighting scenes in the movie at ALL!!! These scenes are necessary for the movie-watcher to be entertained and make the movie "watchable" and therefore be the #1 Blockbuster Movie of the Summer! You're ruining the movie's "niche" of it's INCREDIBLE fight scenes and action scenes by dissecting it to the point where it becomes too fictional for you. Just enjoy Neo being a "Bad-Ass" in the movie. Man, if I went to go see the movie with your mentality and attitude, then I would be asking the same questions and would find the movie to be very fake, boring, unreal, awful, etc., etc. This is a "Science Fiction" movie. I think you should stick with "documentary" movies instead. I think those types of movies would suit you well, since they are very "realistic".

Posted by: MikeP. on May 26, 2003 08:56 PM

who was the survivor at the end?.. i couldnt recognize him, and i was kind of lost on how the survivor will play into it all.

Posted by: Lisa on May 26, 2003 11:10 PM

the survivor was the smith in the real world the other survvor is neo

Posted by: chris on May 27, 2003 12:07 AM

the survivor was the smith in the real world the other survvor is neo

Posted by: chris on May 27, 2003 12:08 AM

the reason why the agents in thefirst movie cant avoid point blank shots is because they still have to obey the rules and coding of the matrix, while neo is able to change the rules, he can stop bullets (because the bullets are part of the matrix coding, and comply to simple physics)....thats why while he can stop bullets in the palace in reloaded, simple..
however, because the programs are still there they are programs within the matrix and he cannot simploy destroy them, he has to fight them.... (again thats why he destroyed smith in the first movie as he was a locked in part of the matrix.

Posted by: REID on May 27, 2003 01:39 AM

most of you are retarded, i think about 10 posts got the movie and those that didn't get it just gave up and are jealous and making insults. the ones that got it you made good points that i didn't see from that angle before. cool.

Posted by: the one on May 27, 2003 03:40 AM

i think they made Matrix Reloaded way too complicated. The first one was pretty ez 2 understand, but they put way too much philosophy crap into the second. Y couldn't they just have had the prophecy b fo real and have Neo save the day (like how a hero does in every other movie)...instead they made up some BS that there are now six matrixes so they could make a trilogy out of it. I didnt even understand it the first time, i had to go back to watch it again (not for the action) just to realize wut the hell the architect was talkin about.

I guess they made the movie so confusing to make those who dont understand, keep on going back and watching it so they can make more money.

Posted by: Neo is The Six on May 27, 2003 04:28 AM

I understand it kind of is this right, Neo is a program is zion a program? when the program is restarted is morpheus and trinity again there or is it some people new? In the first movie tank didnt die but hes dead in the 2nd ???? They destroy zion so they resistance dosent get to much right???

Posted by: Beaz on May 27, 2003 04:40 AM

Matrix..what:

One thing - paragraphs are your friend.

I do think you missed the point of the discussion - everyone with a brain realizes WHY the fighting scenes are the way they are.That does not mean that they have to be explained that way in the context of the story.

Oh and - lol d00d. wtf u r gay!11 rofl.

-Err- What? Yeah. Exactly.

Ellen:

Some people enjoy challenging a theory and seeing where they can take it. Nothing wrong with that. Sure beats watching Oprah. Obviously you are not far behind anyhow since you found your way here.

Posted by: Someone_else on May 27, 2003 06:23 AM

Someone_else:

Hopefully I'm not that far behind. Last time I recalled, this was MY website along with Scott. :)

Posted by: Ellen on May 27, 2003 08:24 AM

The whole thing about Neo stopping the machines at the end was already explained in the movie. At least I thought so. When the second ship arrived, it released it's EMP weapon at the same time that Neo thought he was stopping the machines. That's what shocked him too. He was too close to the machines when the EMP hit.

Posted by: Ryan on May 27, 2003 08:35 AM

Thank god for Scott and a few others like MikeP.

Some of you ask the most stupid questions like why doesn't agent smith kill neo with guns etc... Well why does anybody do anything at all.

Why did Plato bother coming up with his brilliant explanation for life thousands of years ago and why did they bother making the Matrix after all.

Because if they hadn't we wouldnt have been able to see one of the film masterpieces of the last 50 years. Also we wouldnt be here arguing about it either which obviously a lot of you enjoy.

When any of you have the imagination to come up with an idea like the Matrix and explain it as well as these guys are doing then maybe you can get picky.

Also the Matrix isn't about Hollywood trying to make money its about some guys trying to share there ideas with us, sure hollywood make a few bob out of it :s.

The brilliance of the matrixz is it allows you to escape from reality and imagine something different, it makes you question your whole way of life, and that to me is the brilliance. So dont watch the film and try to find problems watch the film and try to find solutions and explanations. Have some imagination like good old Scott up there.

Posted by: Roberto on May 27, 2003 09:14 AM

This is what I think is 'going on' with the film;
Neo is not 'the one' in terms of the prophecy that Morphius stands by. He is only 'the one' insofar as he is the one perpetuating the survival of the matrix. It may well be that the prophecy is intended to be a pseudo second coming analogy; an anology in the sense that the writers/directors are trying to undermine religion and tales of some saviour's ressurection by showing how such a belief is merely a means of social control imposed on the unintelligent, or unenlightened, by some great power; in this case the creator. Morphius is indicative of those in our society who invest too much belief and faith in the notion of 'all coming good in the end' via divine intervention. Ironically, it is the blind faith of Morphius and those like him in seeking the destruction of the matrix which actually perpetulates its existence.

In breif, the guy at the end of the film who earlier tried to kill Neo is actually 'the one'; the one who will play an integral role in Neo's death - or choice to change fate by not perpetuating the viscious circle of the last six matrices. This ties in with the oracle banging on so much about the importance of knowing that we have to understand fate in order to munipulate it. Again ironic is the fact the the prophecy is false, though there is 'one' who is important in making Neo realise what isa going on.

Smith is at this moment unimportant; merely a minor virus in the matrix. Equally the long haired blokes and that wacky French man are a trivial addition to the underlying plot. I do believe that Smith will play an incidental role in the downfall of the matrix.

Behind all of this (the film) is of course thinking that is thousands of years old, given contemporary philosophical relevance by the thinking of Descartes, and contemporary popular interest because of other films like The Truman Show. It is impossible not to be moved intellectually by such a film as this, though I'd still rather be in the matrix/virtual reality banging fit birds and flying than living in the middle of the earth at a bonkers rave where everyone is clearly taking pills anyway, or drunk, indulging themselves in another virtual reality of their own, as we all do every weekend of our lives!

Posted by: Chris on May 27, 2003 09:58 AM

Ryan-Why did Neo fall into a coma if he didn't cause the EMP?

Posted by: Eric on May 27, 2003 10:15 AM

Eric,
As I said in my earlier post (but here it is in more detail), when Neo was close to the machines, and stuck his hand out, the 2nd ship released it's EMP weapon at the exact same time. A coincidence, yes. When the EMP weapon hits the machines, all the electricity is "sucked" out of them - see first Matrix movie and notice the lightning effect of the EMP. This is what shocked Neo and knocked him out, putting him in that coma-like state.

Posted by: Ryan on May 27, 2003 10:34 AM

"When any of you have the imagination to come up with an idea like the Matrix and explain it as well as these guys are doing then maybe you can get picky. "

Actually the Matrix is a rip off of very similar book written years ago.

Posted by: Rym on May 27, 2003 11:11 AM

I'm curious, what book?

Posted by: Ellen on May 27, 2003 11:20 AM

Quote: "What war council where you at...remeber the first movie when trinity shot the agent in the head at point blank....and hmmm the agents move pretty fast....and she got him....so if there were hundreds of agents who can all move fast like neo (maybe a little slower) and they all jumped on him...like they did and started shooting him at point blank...we may have a dead neo"

That's pretty funny. First, remember that this is an action movie and it would have done me no good to see Neo dead half way through the movie. Hell, I wondered why the idiots shooting at Robocop just shoot him in the face. The whole sequence demonstrated to me that Neo still has no idea of just how powerful he is.

Posted by: Agony on May 27, 2003 11:45 AM

OMG Get a life people. Matrix is a movie, Sci-Fi surely you have something else you can focus on. Something productive perhaps.

Posted by: Pat on May 27, 2003 12:14 PM

I think that the EMP from the ship might be a good explanation for why the sentinels dropped in front of NEO. I've only seen the movie once and I guess I missed the ship pressing the EMP. If that's not what happened, here's another possibility that is deeper.

Neo is a tool for the Architect to accomplish certain things that have been well discussed in these posts and explained in the movie. If Neo's role were not over yet for the machine's sake, then they would put into place measures to ensure his safety. The sentinels are not thinking machines, or at least have displayed signs of being simply "seek and destroy" machines. Their job right now is to destroy the humans in Zion. They obviously don't have any programming to think "Oh this is Neo, don't kill him and let's move along) otherwise they would not have tried to kill him. A good non-EMP-detonated-by-ship explanation would be a self-destruct (or shutdown) mechanism that goes off if they try to kill him.
Don't ask me how this self-destruct thing works. I'm only making suggestions. But I think it's a cool concept. It still holds for the first movie because the sentinels were about to go for Trinity first before Neo at the end (If I recall correctly). A self-destruct (or shutdown) program would not have been triggered.

Of course there's always the possibility that a ship set off an EMP, or any explanation anyone here has to offer, or the creators of Matrix just decided, "Hey let's confuse everyone".

Cheers

Posted by: Phil on May 27, 2003 01:53 PM

scott and others,

thank you for some pretty decent insights. And whoever wrote that, that was a nice jab, but I realize that some fight scenes would be deleted if they were there only for "realistic" reasons. I was just curious if there was some explanation for inconsistencies (if there were inconsistencies).

The gun explanation I don't buy, but most of what you said was fairly enlightening. I read something, some comment I think, where they said Neo was just toying with the Smiths. That can't be true because they (Smith) almost killed him with the faith healing trick early on.

There were plenty of fight scenes I had no problem with, especially in the first one. I still think it was a "good" movie and will become better after another 18-20 bucks (for 2)

Posted by: Noah on May 27, 2003 02:20 PM

It was no EMP. Do you remember how Neo said, questioningly "I can feel them..." I'd venture to guess that the "Real World" is just another matrix. He stops them with his hands, just as he does bullets inside the matrix. There's a lot we're missing, and it only will be completely explained in the final movie - of course.

Additionally, as far as Agent Smith's replication, and why it doesn't go on forever: IT DOES. If you stick around until the end of the credits, there is a preview of the next movie. In it, you see Neo going up against THOUSANDS of Smiths.

Most of the answers to the other questions regarding the film are philisophical in nature - the Wachowski Brothers are big into that stuff. Take a Philosophy 101 course and things may be a lot clearer to you. It's all about "Choice" and "Free Will". Whatever.

Obviously the designers of this film went to a lot of trouble incorporating all this deep stuff into the movie, and judging by these posts, virtually NO ONE understood the slightest bit of it. Hmm. Well, I hope you enjoyed all the pretty colors.

Posted by: Bub on May 27, 2003 02:49 PM

Bub,

I still stick by my EMP theory. It all fits together. Why do you think the other ship was already there ready to pick them up so quickly? It's because they just finished using the EMP weapon. And if Neo was still "the One" even in the real world, he would not have got knocked at by the sentinels. It was the EMP blast hitting the sentinels that knocked him out. When he said, "I can feel them...", I believe he was simply fooling himself. He has no power in the real world. The Wachowski Bros. already have made it public during interviews that there is no matrix within' a matrix and that the real world was not another matrix.

Ryan

Posted by: Ryan on May 27, 2003 03:12 PM

Ryan: It's a neat idea I'll admit! I'd have to watch the movie again to see if the timing tracks properly.

Posted by: Scott on May 27, 2003 04:34 PM

I'm still confused about the mit were neo stops the squidys. The two explanations above are bove vaild but still dont amke sense as he said wait something feels different. i beilive that now that Neo has been into the centre of the matrix he is somehow connected to the whole robot world and so can feel the robots. Just a wild stab.

Posted by: Andy on May 27, 2003 06:34 PM

Yea i agree wit Phil about the self destruct theory. I dont think the architect or the sentinels can hurt Neo until after he returns to the Source, or the Matrix will be doomed. I'm pretty sure that's why Neo came back to life in the first movie too. He can't die until he carried out his purpose like the keymaker.

But if they were trying to protect Neo (or rather spare him) until he returns to the source, then y send all those Agents after him?....Well, i think its because Neo needs to be trained. He's got to develop the extrordinary skills of THE ONE before he can actually thinks he is THE ONE and attempts to save Zion by returning to the source.

Posted by: Neo is The Six on May 27, 2003 07:14 PM

Good one NitS... didn't consider that perhaps neo CAN'T die, at least during the 1st movie, because he's got, well, more important things to do.

Although I think perhaps all the rest wasn't to train Neo in his, well, "one-ness", rather to awaken that nature within him.

Posted by: scott on May 27, 2003 07:53 PM

You people say that the EMP caused the state of coma in Neo. But Morpheus and Trinity were behind Neo and nothing happend to them. That is why I think the theory of the EMP isnt valid.

Posted by: Stefan on May 27, 2003 07:57 PM

Ryan. i just dont see ure point as plausable...
Firstly.

The EMP wud have knocked the ship that was using it out. ie first movie, they powered down the core b4 using it. and y they didnt use it when the ship was under attack, cuz it wud have cut neo's signal and killed him...

and also... they say that neo is physically fine, just in a coma. if he was hit by an electrical discharge, he wud have some kind of burn on him.

feel free to tell me i suck and stuff, but i believe the matrix in matrix therory, as it explains alot of things better than anyone can explain with other theories. regardless of whether the bros have sed that there is no matrix in matrix....

We'll see in the next movie.


- AngrySponge

Posted by: AngrySponge on May 27, 2003 08:01 PM

NiTS thats a damn good point.

Posted by: AngrySponge on May 27, 2003 08:04 PM

I would like to add one more scenario about Neo stopping the sentinels. The real world is also the matrix (not matrix within matrix), this is created for the people who do not believed the matrix world and is an outlet for these people, where in they are made to believe that they are freed from the matrix world. This can be evident from the Neo getting the dreams of trinity getting shot and Oracle asking Neo whether he saw her die in her dreams. So we can say that the dreams were imprinted in his mind as he was in the matrix. The whole setup is done only to get a good amount of information about humans by driving the human mind to the edge. This explains Neo stopping the sentinels as he discovers this world is also a simulation. I feel if Neo had walked out of the other door, he would have entered the real ‘real world’ and reloaded the matrix.
Also about the bullets killing Neo in the matrix, this can never happen even if he is shot from a short range and bullets passing through his body, because he believes that the bullets are virtual. In the first part even though he is shot several times, after his heart spots, his mind realizes that this world is just a simulation, and he is born again.

Posted by: AJ on May 27, 2003 08:33 PM

-Okay, This is just "my opinion" of how "I" perceived the movie. Sorry if I disagree w/ sum of the previously posted comments. I'm not trying to necessarily argue w/ or insult NEone rather, I'm just presenting sum alternate ideas/explanations.

1. I dont think Neo is the same exact anomoly in any of the previous matrices. I think that each time there's a new anomoly born into the current matrix. BUT, Where's the anomoly character from the previous matrix? Or at least, wut happened to the last "one". Remember when Neo had the conversation w/ the counsler in the engineering level of zion, and Neo pointed out that there are no young people on the counsil? I believe thats because the people on the counsil were the original people selected to rebuild zion from the last matrix. I want to think that the counsler that talked w/ Neo possibly wuz the anomoly or knew him/her in the last matrix but isn't saying NEthing. He did say that he understands Neo's purpose but duz not know how he duz the things he duz. Neo is not the first anomoly but, no doubt (in my mind) the most powerful one yet. There were many clues that lead me to believe this. The achitech commenting on how Neo understood much quicker than the others, The merilvingian (spelling) commenting that Neo has skill, and The Oracle commenting that Neo has made a believer out of her (meaning wut? I'm not sure).

2. I believe Agent Smith is a totally new factor that has never happened in the previous Matrices. Neo obviously set him free of the constraints of his programming by fucking him up in the first movie. *Question: Where did sum of U guys get the idea he wuz limited on copiing himself? I saw plenty of smiths in the "burly brawl" and they were still coming constantly. I dont believe there's a limit on how many times he can copy and that is a new additional threat to the current matrix other than Neo being more power than NEone prior to him. When Smith copies into sumone, he obviously wont let the host person die cause that would kill/elminate his new copy. This I believe creates a huge problem for the matrix. I really dont have many ideas on how Smith will effect the outcome (sorry).

3. The ending... Real world vs. Another Matrix idea. I'm not sure on this one. I tend to favor the idea of it being another matrix more though. Neo's understanding and powers, as I've sed, are far beyond NE of the "ones" prior to him and he did say sumthing like "something is different, I can feel them" when the sentinals were chasing. I believe he stopped them w/ similar abilities as in the other matrix. I dont understand the coma going w/ this theory but, oh well.

3b. NOW, AS FOR THE WHOLE OTHER GUY AND EMP THING... I could be mistaken but, I think a few of you guys misunderstood wut happened in the movie. There were like 6-8 ships that were waiting for sum sort of attack from the sentinals. Zion wuz anticipating an attack on sum area (cant remember) and wuz going to combat the sentinals at that spot. This wuz not the same spot that Neo confronted the 5 or 6 sentinals by himself. NEway, they explained that one of the ships had set off an EMP charge before the sentinals broke through and when they DID, it wuz a slaughter rather than a battle since the 6-8 ships were all disabled from the early EMP blast. NOW, they sed that all were killed except for ONE and he wuz found unconscious. THAT wuz the guy that agent smith copied into, inside the matrix. The ship that picked up 'unconscious Neo' and his buddies wuz the same ship that previously went to the aftermath of that slaughter and found the the survivor. Hence, Neo and the other guy both unconscious next to each other at the end of the movie. I believe that the guy Smith took over, set off an EMP early which basically sabotaged their attempt to block the sentinal attack. BUT, I'm very curious as to how everyone but that guy wuz killed. How did the sentinals miss him?

- Okay, thats all I have for now. I really would like to hear wut U guys think of my ideas and conclusions. I know its only a movie and yes I have a life outside of sci-fi. hehe.. I just find this story and its ideas very interesting and I'm anxious to see the next movie and see how it really ends up. Hopefully the DVD version of "Reloaded" will have commentary explaining the storyline and all these ideas. haha! L8er!

Posted by: Hyperzone on May 27, 2003 08:52 PM

Okay, I think I get the entire movie except one part; what is the deal with the rebuilding zion thing, has there been more than one zion? And if so why do the computers want to rebuild it. I don't understand... I may be a retard, but I just don't get it!

Posted by: Pdiddy on May 27, 2003 10:24 PM

RE: ELLEN MAR.27/03 "Im curious, what book"

The fundamental ideals behind the matrix I believe are found in a book called "Simulacra and Simulation". I could be wrong because I havent read the book; I am trying to find it. However I am pretty certain that it is the book you are looking for.

Posted by: shane on May 27, 2003 10:41 PM

RE: ELLEN MAR.27/03 "Im curious, what book"

The fundamental ideals behind the matrix I believe are found in a book called "Simulacra and Simulation". I could be wrong because I havent read the book; I am trying to find it. However I am pretty certain that it is the book you are looking for.

Posted by: shane on May 27, 2003 10:41 PM

There have been a lot of really good points about almost every aspect of this movie. There was a question I had, that surprisingly no one talked about.

What was the deal with agent Smith in the "real world" (Zion) standing there in the corner cutting his hand with a knife, bleeding, and then almost seeming like he was going to attack Neo and the crew when they were leaving to aboard the ship? But instead he shook Neo's hand with what looked like a bloody hand from holding the knife.

-TJ

Posted by: TJ on May 27, 2003 10:41 PM

He was gonna kill neo. but the annoying kid that free'd himself i think its him anyway, the one from the animatrix) shouted and so the gang turned round and fumbled his attempt (basically, he is The One and nothing can stop him, so fate saved his ass)
i think anyhoo

Posted by: AngrySponge on May 28, 2003 12:16 AM

He wuz cutting his left hand only to verify the knife wuz sharp. Then he wuz heading off to get Neo but yes, that annoying young guy that thinks Neo saved him yelled "Neo" and the guy quickly put the knife behind his back and shook Neo's hand. That wuz all.

Posted by: hyperzone on May 28, 2003 03:01 AM

i have seen reloaded about 8 times.(download copy)no one here has really said anything wrong you just havent seen it enough to understand. If you are able to get a copy of this film you should watch the part about the architect over and over and really here what he says. This will make the move really make sence.
And to all the people badmouthing those of us who want to talk about the movie, what do you have beter to do with your time. I mean really is badmouthing us more constructive than talking about a movie?

Posted by: chris on May 28, 2003 03:15 AM

This is my explanation: The Matrix, as any piece of software, has bugs. The "Bill Gates" of the Matrix (a supercomputer called The Architect) realized long ago that human beings are not like machines, and they make choices that are not perfect and also act by intuition and feelings. Trying to control this with software is tough, and just like in real life, some people are more talented than others with "ESP" and "psychic" powers, hence spotting "something wrong" with the world and rejecting it as a sham (The Matrix). These hard to control (or "talented") people are anomalies and they represent 0.1% of the Matrix's population! The Architect has learned over time how to spot and track these anomalies by the way the act, and he "releases" them so as to have a more stable Matrix. The Oracle's job is to reach out to these people, and give them an alternate choice so that if they reject the Matrix, they will do so on the Architect's terms. As bugs are ironed out, the Architect learns more and more about controlling the human psyche, but he needs to do so by trial and error. He needs a single sample of one of these anomalies to interact with the humans at their level so he can understand how they act and react in their imperfect ways so as to be able to control them. This single human sample is the "One". The Architect found Neo to be an intriguing anomaly, and fed special information ("brain programming") to Neo while he was plugged into the Matrix, so that he knows how to be more independent and free than the average anomaly. This manipulation causes awe in the other free humans, and this allows him to interact thoroughly with them, as well as in the Matrix. The idea is that after the "One" has interacted and learned enough he will be manipulated back to the Architect and the main Matrix computer (The Source) so he can use his pre-programmed knowledge to download his information about himself and other anomalies. Further knowledge is gained, some bugs are ironed out, the Matrix is reset, and a new learning cycle begins.

People wondering about Zion figure this... Zion is like a big rat-lab for the Architect. It is like one of those ant-colonies that we build in a box. The Architect in fact accumulates all humans in there and lets them do "human things" so that he can learn more and give the anomalies something to do. However, humans will be humans and they will try to figure out what is going on and fight for their freedom! So after he gathers all info through the One, he has to destroy Zion before things get out of hand. That is why he lets the One live on to recreate his rat-lab all over again with fresh Matrix guinea-humans.

However, this strategy has its risks. Choice is the risk! If the One refuses to cooperate, all knowledge is lost in the cycle because the timetable his orchestrated so that Zion and all non-Matrix humans are destroyed at a certain time! In the case of Neo, he refused to cooperate because unlike the other 5 before him, he fell in love and the no-brainer of choosing the "reset" door was no longer a no-brainer. The Architect tried unsuccessfully to convince Neo that it was futile to try to save Trinity. Now the Architect is at a loss because he has never been turned down before by the One. Meanwhile, Neo is learning more and more about his powers (revival, etc.) and it seems that some of the pre-programming and interactions with the machines (i.e. Smith) have thought him how to use his charged-up brain waves to not only control machines in the Matrix, but also outside of it. The Architect now thinks that the One and all other non-Matrix and Zion humans will be killed in the real world, and never expects that his manipulations of the One would backfire, but in the next Matrix movie, they will obviously show how wrong he was.

Posted by: Dr Chaos on May 28, 2003 05:48 AM

I would like to know why all the agents talk in that monotone voice, its riduculous. Further more I didn't give a monkeys about any of the characters, I was completely indifferent regarding whether neo, trinity and morph live or die.

Posted by: Drew on May 28, 2003 05:50 AM

- and another thing if the Architect is so powerful why doesn't he have a razer that beard looked ludicrous.

Posted by: Drew on May 28, 2003 06:00 AM

Myself and a friend have been having a debate about the age of the Nebuchadnezzar. Is the date on the side of the ship (from the first film) the date that it was originally built, when the first matrix was created, or is it the date of when the sixth matrix was created? (Hope that makes sence to you!!)

Posted by: Tart on May 28, 2003 08:34 AM

tart: makes sense! If the outside world really is the outside world, then it probably dates from the "founding" of the most recent iteration of Zion (5th). If so, it would make a nice data reference for how old "Matrixes" get before they have to be reset.

If the outside world is just another onion layer, then the date could mean anything.

TJ: Being "infected" with smith has probably driven his human host insane. Self-mutilation is a common dramatic reference to bug-nut insanity.

Posted by: scott on May 28, 2003 10:05 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen (especially Chris, the guy who posted above),
While some of you are incredibly close to the reasons behind everything (Chris), some of you are generally completely off. I've sort of skimmed this thread, and here are my explanations (they actually make sense) of the main issues you guys have been talking about:

1) Every time the matrix is reloaded, the One is reborn at some point. NOT NEO. Remember that each person in the Matrix IS actually a physical person. "The One" is the title given to someone who is the personification of the snowball effect of all the errors in the matrix (I'll explain that one in #2). The One is born, the drama plays out, Zion is destroyed, the Matrix is reloaded, and it starts over. Pretty much anyone could turn out to be the One, which is why the Agents needed to hunt Neo down.

2) The Matrix, by design, is not perfect. Humans wouldn't accept it, and it failed, remember? So the Oracle, in helping the Architect design the current matrix, made it slightly imperfect. That imperfection was the ability of a person to choose - the program could only predict a given person's actions like 99.9% (I don't remember the actual number) of the time. This ultimately translates into 99.9% of the population accepting the Matrix, or 0.1% of the Matrix rejecting it (and therefore being a candidate for removal, just like Trinity, Morpheus, etc.). NEO, however, is a special case. If you've ever done any kind of math beyond the basics, you know that if you round off a calculation, and then use that number in another calculation, THAT answer will be further from the real answer than the first. Picture this happening a gazillion times, i.e. the 0.1% of decisions made outside the Matrix's control, and over time the error gets bigger and bigger. Over time, someone shows up who can use that huge error in the matrix - The One.

3) Ah, the much debated Agent Smith... he's an exile program now. He told Neo before the multi-Smith fight, that Neo had imprinted some of his own code onto Smith somehow. It could be that it is either this imprint that allows Smith to replicate, or it is something he learned. Regardless of that, he is able to possess people outside the Matrix, an ability which he DID inherit from Neo - Neo fried the seekers at the end. It's something he hasn't done before, but didn't need to, and no previous "One" has EVER needed to. That ability has always been present but never used. As for the "why isn't Smith infinite" question, why the hell would he walk around the world replicating himself into every person, knowing that those people are ASLEEP IN THEIR TANKS??? What's the point? He replicates as he needs, like when the other Agents faced him, or he possessed the 'survivor' from Zion. Anything else would either blow his cover, or be a waste of time, or both!

3) THe destruction of Zion (Parts a and b)

a) The Architect only offers Neo the choice of doors because he NEEDS Neo's code to be recompiled into the Matrix. He can't force Neo, or let things go to fate because Neo is the one dude who CAN'T be forced and DOESN'T have a fate (for the most part). The Architect expected Neo to go for the other "Zion Saving" door because all previous 'Ones' had, and the only reason he didn't was because he was in love with someone else, Trinity, which had never happened to any previous One. By all rights, Neo SHOULD have taken the other door, but he exercised that snowballed 0.1%, and took the other one. The Architect had prepared for this eventuality, making sure that Trinity was going to die anyway - in his eyes, Neo only had one logical choice. However, Neo again defied the programming of the Matrix and saved her.

b) The Architect does NOT use Zion as a big rat-lab, as Chris claims - sorry, Chris, but you are close. He's not collecting info on Zion through the One. He's collecting info on the One through Zion. The Architect NEEDS Zion - the people from Zion are the ones who found Neo (Mr. Error), and pulled him out of the near-perfect Matrix, making it possible for Neo to go back in, meet the Architect, and recompile his code into the Matrix. In summary, the Architect needs to find the One, get him/her the hell out of there, and bring them back to the core, thus ensuring the survival (and reloading) of the Matrix.

This string is quite interesting. If you guys have any questions or rebuttals, please post - I'll be happy to defend my arguments. BTW, since I'm at work (LOL!) I don't have time to explain my views on the Oracle, but does anyone have any arguments for or against her integrity?

Matt

Posted by: Matty on May 28, 2003 10:39 AM

Oh, and a couple more things -

Chris - the Oracle is NOT working with the Architect anymore. She's an exile, which is why she needs the Happy Bodyguard and the backdoors to get the hell out of dodge. I just don't know if her purpose is to get the One to the core, or to help him develop his powers of choice. I mean, she IS the one who made the current Matrix acceptable and imperfect. My personal belief is that she's not exactly on Neo's side, and just wants him to get to the core, thus keeping the Matrix alive - it's the only place she can live.

Tart - that's a really cool point. Seeing as I'm of the mind that the outside world really is the outside world, I'd say the date stems from the last reloading. Of course, that's assuming that ALL the ships are destroyed each cycle and are rebuilt anew.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on May 28, 2003 10:45 AM

The Oracle's relationship to the Architect wasn't clear to me, but that may be because I've only seen it once and was digging for popcorn at that moment.

My own opinion about the Oracle is she's playing a different game. I think she sees the only real future as one in which the machines and humans work together of their own free will, rather than one enslaving the other. There was extremely strong slave imagery in the first movie, and I think this might be a subtext the brothers are exploring.

My own raw speculation, a complete guess here, is not that the Oracle wants the Matrix to survive. Far from it. My opinion is the Oracle believes, or knows, there is something Outside that threatens both the machines and humanity... something is threatening the planet itself and the machines can't handle it, and won't let humanity handle it.

IMO this would explain a lot of the Oracle's motivations, and why she isn't exactly an ally of The One, but does work to help him.

What would pose such a threat? Oh any number of things... During armegeddon a berserker-like uber-machine may have got turned loose on the surface, tasked only with the destruction of whatever makes the matrix tick. One the matrix machines can't defeat.

This would make for a nice twist on the "onion" theory... instead of matrixes within matrixes what we may have instead are zions within zions. Well, in a metaphorical sense at least... the matrix is still an artificial construct, but perhaps the machines that generate and run the matrix are hiding themselves from something greater. If that greater thing were to find and destroy the matrix, especially right after a reload, the result would essentially be anihilation for both sides.

It's also possible the threat is from an E.T., and the machines need humanity's chaos and intuition to defeat them before they blow up the whole planet.

It may be that the Oracle has come up with a different sort of construct that allows humanity and the machines to work together without enslavement, and needs the current matrix destroyed in order to "make her play."

The hope is, of course, that we will get to find out soon enough.

Posted by: scott on May 28, 2003 11:29 AM

Good points, Scott, not unlike thoughts I've had myself. In all of this, the Oracle is the one player I'm not sure of. But check this out:

To clear up your first point, the Oracle and the Architect were partners of a sort. The Architect made the original perfect matrix, and was incapable of building a less-than-perfect one. He said the "mother" of the current Matrix was "an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche". Doesn't actually come out and say
it's the Oracle, but who else could it be, right?

As for the Oracle's motives, we really don't have much proof. There are a couple of possibilities:

1) The Oracle is helping Neo - This would make her self-sacrificing, as Neo's goal is to destroy the Matrix, the only place she, as an exile, can live. She's given Neo seemingly helpful advice, yet the question was bluntly posed in Reloaded - can she be trusted, especially since she is the mother of the matrix, not just a product of it?

2) The Oracle is against Neo - the counter argument! IS SHE REALLY AN EXILE? What would she have done to be up for deletion? Or is the whole thing a trick? Really, all her "helpful" advice has accomplished is delivering Neo to the core, which, really, is all the "Prophecy" was supposed to do. All of that serves the Architect's purpose - it forced the other 5 Ones to save twenty something people, let Zion die, and reload the Matrix. That's not much of a help, is it?

3) The Oracle has her own agenda - I would say that either that agenda is peace, as opposed to unity against a larger threat. Although the "Zion within a Zion" is definitely a cool idea, we don't have any evidence of it at all. Also, the peace idea works, but how does sustaining the Matrix work towards that end? I have a theory.

In summary, I think one of two things.
ONE: Oracle is evil. The prophecy is bogus (it wasn't fulfilled, and was called a lie by Neo at the end of the movie). It wasn't fulfilled because Neo took the other door. The Oracle's sole motive was to get Neo to the core and reload the Matrix.
TWO: Oracle is out for peace by destroying the matrix. How, you say? Neo calls the Architect's bluff, because he realizes that if he takes the Trinity-saving door, the machines will eventually lose their power source, since the Matrix will crash and kill everyone inside. The Architect responds with "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.". I think the Oracle knows that the machines won't be exterminated in this eventuality, and there could be peace.

Then again, in order for either of these situations to take place, the One has to get to the core, which the Oracle does anyway. It could be that that's her only purpose and any result after that, life or death, is beyond her control. SHe just has to get him there.
Thoughts?

Matt

Posted by: Matty on May 28, 2003 01:41 PM

If anyone's interested, the conversation between Neo and the Architect is right here.

http://www.theantitrust.net/articles/viewarticle.php?articleid=108

Posted by: Matty on May 28, 2003 01:47 PM

thanks matt

Posted by: chris on May 28, 2003 02:20 PM

Thanks for the link, Matt!

Ok, now I remember why I didn't think the Oracle was the "intuitive" program:

The Architect: If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution

(emphasis added)

As I recall, that "please" was said in a derogatory tone, as in "oh, please, you're smarter than that, it's not her." To me, this strongly implies that the Oracle is in fact not who The Architect is referring to.

Personally, I believe the Oracle is not where we should be focussing our attention. I think Smith will turn out to be a key player. Out of all of them, he seems to be the only genuinely new figure. The Oracle, the One, Zion, the Architect, all have been here before. But not Smith. Further, Smith has shown what would appear to be the unprecedented ability to transfer out of the matrix and into the real world. It seems to have driven his host insane, yes, but, well, you can't have everything you know.

But really, all of the new characters introduced represent genuine wild cards, capable of anything. The Merovingian et. al. seem to, like the Oracle and her bodygaurd, be able to somehow survive the reset (as I recall the Merovingian shouted "I've dealt with you before" or some such thing). I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of them.

Also, one note: I don't think the TV screens were past neos (too many), nor were they emotional states that Neo was going through (they didn't all say the same thing each time).

I think they were quantum states of the various choices Neo could make at any one point, in a mind-bending way did make, and the "zoom" was merely the effect of the quantum wave collapsing. Again, I think the brothers are exploring issues of slavery and free will, not emotion or love. The quantum explanation IMO deals with this nicely.

Posted by: scott on May 28, 2003 03:21 PM

Scott, that is what i thought too until he continued to talk about "the mother"as if Neo were correct. So i feel that his "please", derogatory as it may be,is still impling that the intuitive program (the mother) is still the Oracle.
Although your theory is the most logical and dose show that we do not really know who the mother is. so Good Call!
If anyone has anymore opinions on the Oracal or who the "mother" of the matrix is please post
Thank you

Chris

Posted by: chris on May 28, 2003 04:39 PM

Hey this is an interseting fact about the first movie.
Dose everyone remember the part where neo is in the room with Smith and smith Bugs neo? well as a way to fade in to this scene they went from a room that very much resembled the room where the architect Resided. they even went through a tv screen. I assumed that it was a Surveillance camera but maybe it was the architect watching neo.
If anone has a chance to see this pay close attention to that part.

Posted by: chris on May 28, 2003 04:46 PM

can anyone like type out teh whole scrpit for the architect buit who ahs downloaded it as i dont ave it and i would like 2 study the script. thx if any1 does.

Posted by: Andy on May 28, 2003 05:16 PM

he Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bullshit.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

Hey Andy this is from the link given by matty today it is http://www.theantitrust.net/articles/viewarticle.php?articleid=108

Posted by: chris on May 28, 2003 06:30 PM

Scott, that is what i thought too until he continued to talk about "the mother"as if Neo were correct. So i feel that his "please", derogatory as it may be,is still impling that the intuitive program (the mother) is still the Oracle.
Although your theory is the most logical and dose show that we do not really know who the mother is. so Good Call!
If anyone has anymore opinions on the Oracal or who the "mother" of the matrix is please post
Thank you

Chris

Posted by: chris on May 28, 2003 06:33 PM

Hey this is an interseting fact about the first movie.
Dose everyone remember the part where neo is in the room with Smith and smith Bugs neo? well as a way to fade in to this scene they went from a room that very much resembled the room where the architect Resided. they even went through a tv screen. I assumed that it was a Surveillance camera but maybe it was the architect watching neo.
If anone has a chance to see this pay close attention to that part.

Posted by: chris on May 28, 2003 06:34 PM

some pretty obvious but highly critisized points of reloaded were

1) why didn't all the agent smiths shoot neo atpoint blank?

2) Whats thea deal with smith?


If all the smiths did shoot neo at point blank when they all tacklen him at the park, then they would probably do more damage to themselves than neo with all those bullets flying in every direction. Perhaps if the original smith got shot and died then he would no longer be able to support all the copies and they would all die. and when a smith is copied does he even come complete with a gun? maybe that is just a part of thier program. but maybe guns are an entirely different program so somewere along the line they just have to pick one up at the local gun shop.

and it seems like i'm reading a lot about "Agent Smith". there is no more agent smith, it is just smith. that is an important idea to grasp when reasoning with what smith is trying to do and what he wants becuause sure, he was once programmed to fight and "protect" the matrix in a sense but now he is on his own and appearently, he knows what he wants. And yea that was him who sent neo his ear piece that is mandatory for an agent to have. possibly so they can transport themselves to anyone around.

Posted by: scott on May 28, 2003 07:37 PM

scott,

you are an intelligent person, but the tackling in the park explanation is a big stretch.

Neo should be able to do much more than just "fight" after the last movie.

Willed destruction, is my choice. point, click, delete. He can work at the speed of the computer, speed of light, theoretically, right? The rules should apply less. I know less fighting, but ultimately more interesting, I think.

As for the multi-layered matrix, unfortunately I think that is where its going.

proof:

1)neo was "created" to initiate the reboot

2)Neo's destruction of the sentinels

3)smith being able to enter the Zion "real" world

4)how was zion created? remember Neo was an invalid for a while. If the counsel was chosen they would have to start from scratch right? They needed help or it was "there" when they got there.

Also, the explanation that those in Zion choose not to ask, see or know how they are kept alive by the machines, is "first level matrix-like". They choose to believe they are rebelling in an autonomous world of their own yet don't know how things operate. It just "does" or "is"

Anyways, it becomes more interesting the more I think about it. Too much fist fighting though.

Posted by: noah on May 28, 2003 08:05 PM

I don't think Neo should be capable of willed destruction. He can only manipulate things that aren't being controlled by programs or someone else. Like bullets for example, they are just tiny pellets flying thru the air really fast. Thats cuz they aren't being controlled by anything. But compare that to a sword. Remember how long it took Neo to take care of Merovingian's henchmen? I mean why didn't he just pull their swords straight from their hands like he did so easily to their bullets. I believe Neo cannot mentally control what is alrdy being controlled physically by another person (like swords and melee weapons), and therefore cannot cause an individual's body to explode at will.

Posted by: Neo is The Six on May 29, 2003 05:15 AM

I'd also like to explain MY theory of why it took Neo so much longer to handle a couple of Merovingian's henchmen, than to take care of the 50+ Smiths.

Neo is still a man. He can is still vulnerable to swords, knives and sharp objects. (Like what happend to his hand when he blocked a sword attack.) The Smiths didn't have any of this. So Neo could get punched and tackled and still be fine (which was wut happend). But Neo had to be extra cautious against the Merovingian's henchmen. One slip and he could get scratched.
Neo also had an advantage against the Smiths becuz he was using that pole from the ground. But against the henchmen, he had only his bare fists at the beginning. And without the knives he pulled from the wall, he prolly wouldn't have even beaten them.(without getting scratched)

so i think it was equally fair that Neo had at least the same amount of trouble handling the 10 henchmen, as he did with the 50+ Smiths.

Posted by: Neo is THE SIX on May 29, 2003 05:35 AM

A couple of things to clarify after reading responses since yesterday:

Scott:
1) I agree that when the Architect says "please" it is derogatory, and I initially took that to mean that the Oracle was not the Mother. However, take it in another way - Neo interrupted him in the middle of an explanation with an answer that, to the Architect, is completely obvious. Also, who else could the female, intuitive, psyche-studying program be? As a buddy of mine pointed out, the Oracle is the Yin to the Architect's Yang - one logical, one intuitive, male and female, one in charge, one in exile. It's a classic foil of personalities.

2) I'm SO happy someone brought up quantam states - half of this trilogy is quantam physics. Although it is possible that the TV's behind Neo portrayed different quantam realities, it couldn't have been all the time. For example, when the Architect tells Neo that Zion has been destroyed five times, the screens behind him show the previous "Ones" (all depicted as Neo, even though they, strictly speaking, weren't Neo) saying things like "THREE?", "FOUR?", etc. Likewise, at the end, all the TV screens showed exactly what Neo was doing - going for the door that no other One had entered. By your theory, going for the Trinity-saving door would be the only quantam possibility available to Neo, which can't be true because this is the sixth iteration. When the Neos on the screen get mad at the Architect's explanation a couple of times, I agree that these could be different quantam realities, but they could also be the different reactions of the previous Ones. Of course, that would mean that they were quantam possibilities in the first place, so both explanations hold. Again, kudos on the physics.

Scott and Neo the Six: You guys are pretty damn close to my own opinion on the point-blank gun to Neo / why does he have to fight at all? thing.
Basically, Neo can do whatever he wants in the Matrix. He's the One, and he can shape the Matrix to his will. BUT! Only if he knows how to do it, and only if he BELIEVES he can do it with no doubt in his mind. However, that would make him perfect, and he is not. The common misconception after the first movie is that Neo is invincible, which cannot be true - he is fallible. It's pointed out several times in the movie (I think by both Smith and the Marovingian, at least) when they say "he's only human". That's why Neo can still be hurt. It takes a whole crapload to hurt him, but he still gets hurt.
As for the stopping bullets thing, he doesn't technically NEED room and time to stick his hand out and stop the freaking bullets. He THINKS he needs to, so he does it. Technically, if he truly believed it, he would be bulletproof, and no point-blank shot could hurt him. Using the physical action of holding out his hand is only a crutch that helps him do what he needs to do. It's like humming a song when you're trying to remember the words - you don't really HAVE to do that to remember, but it helps you do what you need to do. When you get right down to it, the guns and bullets are code. There is no spoon - he just doesn't fully get it yet. :)
As for the method of attack, whether it's fists, swords, or guns, and why did Smith only try to beat him up, what the hell else is anybody supposed to do against a guy who's semi-invincible? You throw everything you've got against it and hurt it if you can.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on May 29, 2003 10:38 AM

Ryan - sorry the EMP theory is incorrect. Watch it again - the crew says that the EMPs were let loose before the senitnels arrived, disabling the other ships prepared for counter-attack. That's why it was a slaughter. I just saw it and they make no reference of "just" releasing an EMP when they pick up Neo and the crew. Also, you can see a pulse of light emit from Neo's hands... I'm sure it will be explained in Rev.

Posted by: Bri on May 29, 2003 01:33 PM

I also think the derogatory "please" uttered by the architect was in response to Neo calling her "The Oracle" - I think Neo was right in who the "mother" was, I just thought the Architecht found it silly for her to be considered an "oracle."

Posted by: Bri on May 29, 2003 02:08 PM

Here is what I have to say. If you "understand" the movie, good for you. If you do not then go see it again. That is what "Hollywood" wants you to do. I saw it twice and will probably see it again. Yes it is that good. My point, people picking the movie apart, why can't neo kill all, why is smith this and that, what is the purpose of the twins. One word Religion. The machines have no religion, or no sence of creation, they are governed by the rules of thier programmers. People have failed to look at the fact that Neo could be some kind of modern messiah (his ability to ressurect, his ability to fly, stop bullets) he is not out to kill anybody or cause severe destruction w/in the matrix. Neo's sole purpose in the movie's reality world is to save mankind; hence, the "wrong" choice. As far as smith coming into the real world: I can't explain I will have to wait and see what the next one is all about. I hate to speculate and try to figure things out b/c it just causes more confusion. See the movie, enjoy it, and see it again if you do not get it. Don't come to these forums to try to disprove people by calling names, it is the nature of mankind to be intuitive. But when you whine and speculate on the inaccuracies w/in the film you just look dumber. Try to come up with your own perception of the movie and present it to us. We debate, then we approve or disprove. As I am curious to what people will say about the Religion concept. B/C in the end God wins, hence mainkind. The machines have to be governed by somebody (man provides the fuel for the machines and god governs man) This is part two of three and the movie ended :To Be Concluded. Meaning no more matrix. Mankind lives on. I am not out to explain the movie, just to open peoples eyes that the movie can be viewed in any way. I believe that this movie is one to place a great line of Sci Fi predecesors: The Planet of the Apes, Stars Wars (The original trilogy), and the Matrix. no other sci fi movies have ever been so overwhelming accepted by the general population. BTW I am not a priest or work in any religious org I just wanted to present the FlipSide

Posted by: Flip Side on May 29, 2003 03:02 PM

Also one more thing. Could the matrix be a program ran a race of better evolved humans that need us to live in their utopian matrix. Hance the Architect (Father Time) and the Oracle (Mother Nature). The architect is only conscerned with time and choice while the Oracle is more human

Posted by: FlipSide on May 29, 2003 03:06 PM

Why can't people understand the Twins. Tehy were ghosts and Did you see them die. I did not. Teh morovigny was a way for the human writers of the matrix to explain human anomolies like Warewolves, vampires, ghosts, etc. Much like they did the Cat thing in the first matrix. Neo thought he saw a cat go by twice, that explained the human perception of Deja Vu.

Posted by: FlipSide on May 29, 2003 03:20 PM

Why can't people understand the Twins. Tehy were ghosts and Did you see them die. I did not. Teh morovigny was a way for the human writers of the matrix to explain human anomolies like Warewolves, vampires, ghosts, etc. Much like they did the Cat thing in the first matrix. Neo thought he saw a cat go by twice, that explained the human perception of Deja Vu.

Posted by: FlipSide on May 29, 2003 03:26 PM

I have a question. Why couldnt those machines make the matrix like a dark void where every1 is always asleep. Then there would be no need for a Zion or an Anomaly to keep the matrix alive. This would also eliminate the possibility of rebellion from the humans.

I am not suggesting that they should have actually did this. Cuz if they did, then there would of course be no action or plot in either one of the Matrix movies and no one would wunna watch it. It is just a thought.

Posted by: Neo is THE SIX on May 29, 2003 07:16 PM

I have a question that you may be able to help with. If the 5 previous One's have all met with the Architect in the same way, what were their choices. In that I mean Neo has a choice between saving Zion or saving Trinity, if the difference between Neo and the other One's is love, what was the other choice for the previous One's?

Posted by: Lloyd on May 30, 2003 08:50 AM

Flip Side: I agree with you on the messiah concept in part. Although Neo is portrayed as a saviour (does that make Trinity Mary Magdalene?....), I don't think that's the reason for his not killing everything in the matrix. Please read what I wrote yesterday about 'being only human'. I really don't want to start a religious debate, especially since the religious parallels are so obvious, but look at Jesus - he could heal people, and walk on water, etc., but he couldn't heal the whole world. Son of God, but only human.
Additionally, I just wanted to clarify your comment about the Twins. They weren't created to explain ghosts, they ARE the explanation for ghosts. The Twins (and others like them) started the stories, kinda like Vlad the Impaler bathing in blood, and stories of Dracula and Vampires erupting as a result. The Twins are the original spooks.

Neo the Six: That's a really good question, and something I had never considered. I think I have an answer for you, though. If the machines induced a 'dark void' kind of hibernation-type thing on all humans, there wouldn't be any power generated. If a human brain is processing absolutely nothing, no energy is output at all. So, they have to keep everyone's brain alive, awake and busy.

Posted by: Matty on May 30, 2003 08:54 AM

Lloyd: It was the same choice for all 6 Ones. The difference is that Neo has a relationship with this Trinity. None of the others had any attachment more than friendship, and so opted to save Zion.

Posted by: Matty on May 30, 2003 09:57 AM

How do you know Neo chose the "wrong" door? If the oracle is against Neo, she was figuring out his psychee.. she knew he would fall in love (she even told Trinity that in Movie #1). If the oracle's job is to get the ONE to the architect (source, whatever) by manipulating him with her mind games, she must have know how important love is... Perhaps by saving Trinity, Neo did exactly what the architect wanted... Don't know how the rest of the movie would make sense with this theory, but in my mind it makes sense.... It's pretty far fetched and make not make any sense to you, and if that is so.. ignore all I say.

Posted by: Random Thought on May 31, 2003 12:44 AM

How do you know Neo chose the "wrong" door? If the oracle is against Neo, she was figuring out his psychee.. she knew he would fall in love (she even told Trinity that in Movie #1). If the oracle's job is to get the ONE to the architect (source, whatever) by manipulating him with her mind games, she must have know how important love is... Perhaps by saving Trinity, Neo did exactly what the architect wanted... Don't know how the rest of the movie would make sense with this theory, but in my mind it makes sense.... It's pretty far fetched and make not make any sense to you, and if that is so.. ignore all I say.

Posted by: Random Thought on May 31, 2003 12:44 AM

How do you know Neo chose the "wrong" door? If the oracle is against Neo, she was figuring out his psychee.. she knew he would fall in love (she even told Trinity that in Movie #1). If the oracle's job is to get the ONE to the architect (source, whatever) by manipulating him with her mind games, she must have know how important love is... Perhaps by saving Trinity, Neo did exactly what the architect wanted... Don't know how the rest of the movie would make sense with this theory, but in my mind it makes sense.... It's pretty far fetched and make not make any sense to you, and if that is so.. ignore all I say.

Posted by: Random Thought on May 31, 2003 12:44 AM

Here's an interesting thought that no one mentioned:

If the agents are part of the "main system" of AI (the singular consciousness), then how come they try so hard to "get the exile" (keymaker) during the car chase scene? Isn't the purpose of the keymaker to get Neo to the source so he can reload the Matrix?

Posted by: KP on May 31, 2003 06:41 AM

Also,

Did anyone notice the wrinkled spoon was given to Neo in Zion in the real world. In part 1 the spoon didn't exist because it was in the Matrix.
How?

And - by the way - In part 1 the Nebuchadnezzar's metal plate says:

Mark III No 11
Nebuchadnezzar
Made In The USA
Year 2069

Any comments?

Posted by: KP on May 31, 2003 06:57 AM

hey..just wondering why the oracle would want the matrix to be reloaded when she is a "broken" program, the whole idea of the reloaded thing is that it gets rid of all the errored programs, therefore wouldnt the oracle be removed?!?

Posted by: Apple_pie on May 31, 2003 07:36 AM

"1) The Oracle is helping Neo - This would make her self-sacrificing, as Neo's goal is to destroy the Matrix, the only place she, as an exile, can live. She's given Neo seemingly helpful advice, yet the question was bluntly posed in Reloaded - can she be trusted, especially since she is the mother of the matrix, not just a product of it?"
posted by matt.
this is why i disagree with this statement. above

Posted by: Apple_pie on May 31, 2003 07:40 AM

how did tank die? It was not explained at all in reloaded.

Posted by: biggest_matrix_fan on May 31, 2003 06:10 PM

The part about there being an EMP released when the senitinels got stopped at the end is wrong, if you notice at the end of the first matrix the EMP disables all electrical machinery within range this includes the ships so how can the ship have arrived so quickly when the sentinels have been stopped on reloaded if the EMP has just been triggered

Posted by: Boris on May 31, 2003 07:35 PM

one thing that nobody seems to have picked up on is right at the begining when smith says

its all happening the same as before,

and then replys

well not exactly the same

this suggests to me that smith has been there in the last six... in the 1st matrix he tells morphius about the first FAILED matrix that the architect talks about.

The thing that is not exactly the same is his ability to clone himself.

im stumped about the whole Neo stopping the squidies thing, I would like to add another theory that is a little far out, please comment :)

neo can control the code in the matrix. He has been to see the architect and he comments that neos code has changed. well the real world, what is that made out of? you could say its a very complexed code.

could neos reprograming have triggered his ability to tap into the real world code? i meen DNA has been proven to be a code, that can be seen as digital...

ill love to see the explanation in the next film... god, i wish sombody would leak a bit of it out!! lol i love spoilers!!

massie

Posted by: massie on May 31, 2003 07:50 PM

### MATRIX AND THE COMPUTERS ###

Smith is a Virus, cause he can infect other programs (agents and peoples on the matrix) e can replicate himself.

There are no 'real world'. It is called RECURSIVITY, one matrix into other matrix into other matrix ... When Neo comes back from the matrix, he is into other matrix. It is completely sick but it's completely normal in the computer programs.

The japanese guy is a Firewall. He protects the Oracle, cause the Oracle is a very important Program.

The architect is a MainFrame, the main computer. He's the most important computer of the movie, cause he controls everything.

I think the third movie will be almost as this topics.

################################################

Posted by: SuperSam[BRAZIL] on May 31, 2003 08:21 PM

heres one of my "theorys" on how neo stopped the squiddies at the end (like i said "my theory", lol!!):-

in the first matrix film neo died then realised his powers when he was brought back to life. wot this suggests to me is that when he was brought back to life he was brought back with the rules of the matrix implanted in him somehow that is why he can bend the rules of the matrix because they are a part of him.

As for him stopping the squiddies at the end of reloaded i think he stopped them because the rules of the matrix are in his mind he is still connected to the matrix even though he is in the real world (sort of like a wireless network adapter it can communicate using waves). this can alos be proven by him saying he can feel them, so what i think happened is he sub-consciencely hacked into the matrix and stopped the squiddies, which caused his brain to think he was in the matrix but really in the real world which messed his mind up which can cause him to collapse

Posted by: matrix_freek on May 31, 2003 08:32 PM

another of my crazy theorys!!! this ones about smith:-

in the first film a.smith killed neo, then when neo came back he realised his powers

Neo then killed smith who then came back and realised his powers (such as the cloning)

smith could be seen as a sort of "the one" for the matrix, but instead of saving humanity saving machinerys instead

like i said, one of my crazy theories

one thing that got me is how they both came back, both were killed?

Posted by: matrix_freek on May 31, 2003 08:40 PM

Obviously, some of you do not have much of a life other than to sit around and daydream and speculate about the author's intended purpose for the movie: to throw a bunch of effects and consequentially linked events together and let you sit there and wonder until the end of time how to put all the pieces together. This is yet another example of trying to make order out of chaos, which is essentially what the storyline is. Why don't you use your "brainpower" to create something beneficial to the world, rather than some unfounded speculation of what a simple movie is all about?

Posted by: Peter on May 31, 2003 10:28 PM

haha.. its probably a little too complicated for you to understand right? it's got the best of both worlds.. simple minded special effects, and a deeply intricate backstory. Why don't you go take philosphy of the matrix at Harvard? here' the link..
harvard matrix class notes

Posted by: johnson on June 1, 2003 12:18 AM

http://www.princeton.edu/~jimpryor/courses/intro/notes/matrix.html

Posted by: johnson on June 1, 2003 12:19 AM

question.. why must the matrix be reloaded? is it just to clean out the bugs or something?

Posted by: johnson on June 1, 2003 12:22 AM

I think some of the best explanations of whats going on in the movie are right here. just a shame some people are asking dumb questions.

my personal feeling is that zion will turn out to be a parallel matrix. one of the main themes in this movie is control, several characters ( mostly the programs ) come out with stuff like, 'you think you have a choice, really there is no choice' , i think that was mostly the merovingwhatsadoodie. And i am sure the architect aka. colonel sanders, says something like it was necessary to give the 0.1% that rejected the matrix some kind of choice ie. to stay in or opt out.

so..... i think the all powerful machines have provided zion to allow the 0.1% to overflow ( a pressure valve if you like ) but every so often, the valve needs dumping. all of the sentinels flying around are simply there to complete the illusion of it being real. i also agree with the dude who thinks the council members are the original zion restart people.

if zion really is a matrix, it explains all sorts of stuff quite well, ie how an imperfect matrix can be made to be perfect, how neo can stop the sentinels ( also maybe he can suddenly do this because he had to be upgraded in some way to meet the architect) how smith can get in to the real world etc.

anyway thats what i think. great movie. thumbs up. twists in the next movie? will neo turn out to be just a program, dunno. more likely morpheus i reckon. nah. probably not. i think there will be some more mahoosive twists to come though.

Creamy out.

Posted by: Creamy Goodness on June 1, 2003 02:47 PM

if any of u finished the "Enter The Matrix" game.....u would know that yes...it was smith that set off the EMP early and and disabling all the ships.......

also..i have develped a theory.....u guys kno how neo stops the sentinels in the nd and he is like "i can feel them" it is possible that the "REAL" world.is also another matrix.....and the matrix that they go to is a matrix within a matrix..... and so on..my theory is that it is an infinite loop of matrixes......

Posted by: SilverBullet on June 1, 2003 06:41 PM

I have read this page from beggining to end and read all ur comments.
I've gatherd some quetions. Can some1 plz answer dem

1) Y do the robots need a zion @ all when the matrix is reloaded
y can't every1 stay in da matrix. Y does the one have 2 pick a bunch of ppl 2 populate zion

2)Y is neo oferd a choice between reloadiing the martix and Trinity.
If the machines really need humans y cant dey just force him 2 reload the matrix

3)Y is Smith the only survivor

Thx yall

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 1, 2003 07:18 PM

oh yeah 1 more quetion wat hapens 2 da ppl plugged into da matrix wen its realoaded

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 1, 2003 07:38 PM

I have a question pertaining to the life of all the people enslaved into the matrix. Don't any of them realize what is happehing when people they know suddenly form into agents, or die via trailer trucks playing chicken on the freeway. Do they not see windows shattering with people in leather suits dodging bullets flying out. My speculation is that somehow the people within the Matrix will play a roll in the third installation. If people are constantly going in and out of the matrix, causing destruction and doing super human shit likeflying in the middle of a public highway, someone should notice.

Posted by: A-mark on June 1, 2003 10:46 PM

I have an answer for u A-Mark. Well yeah the ppl do c all these things happening but the machines dnt want every1 knowing the truth about the matrix and the real world. Since the matrix is just a program the machines simply delete the data of the program corresponding 2 the memory of these ppl seeing all that

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 1, 2003 11:19 PM

Now can some1 answer my questions PLZ

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 1, 2003 11:19 PM

Just read all the comments and I agree with alot of them, the mind boggles at the Wachowski brothers genius. Do you think they read this stuff and laugh? Will they ever revealthe true meaning or do a Kubrick on us?

Anyway I have a theory on the Sentinel argument. We know that Smith and Neo are connected. Indeed they have become imprinted with each others DNA/programm (Smith tells Neo this before the fight). Now knowing this, is it to ridiculous to suggest that Neo got the power to stop the sentinels from this mixture with Smith. The fact that Bane (smith in real world) is the only survivor suggests he had the power to stop sentinels, so maybe this is a power Neo inherited.

Another point about the French guy, I think its fairly obvious that he controls all the matrix "misfits" and looks after them as some sort of rebel army. The level 101 supports this Idea, some what mistified that no1 noticed the 101 link. Genius the film is Genius.

Also the trailer at the end, when you see Neo facing Smith in the rain with thousands of Smiths watching there is a voice telling Neo "HE must be stopped". Not them just HE. Weirdly the voice sounded like the Oracles does this mean that the 3rd film will see the machines and humans uniting to destroy a greater enemy: Smith.

The key is Smith I am sure of that but where the lock is, I have no answers any help?

Rob

Posted by: Rob on June 2, 2003 07:18 AM

First off, to Apple Pie: I agree with you disagreeing with the statement I made. :) I was only posting that as a possibility - if the matrix was destroyed, so would the Oracle.

As for the matrix within a matrix, I have to say again, great idea, but I disagree for a couple of reasons.

1) Wouldn't Neo have always been able to mess up or sense the machines if that were true?

2) If Zion is a parallel matrix, it stands to reason that the same 0.1% error stands, and SOMEONE is going to be escaping and pulling people out, like the people of Zion THINK they're doing in the matrix. We don't see any hint of that.

3) In theory, if that is true, then the world beyond Zion is a matrix as well, the same as the world beyond that. It never ends - great, in theory, but ultimately the machines live in the real world, and it just can't happen.

I think there are two realistic explanations for this:

1) Neo has always been able to do this, but the power was only awakened by his "altered consciousness" (direct quote) as a result of meeting the Architect. The previous Ones would not have been able to manifest this power, because they took the other door.

2) Neo gained this ability to "connect" with the machines in the real world from Smith. Smith says he was "imprinted" with Neo's code somehow. Isn't it possible that Neo got some of Smith's code? Either way, I think one of them got this ability from the other, and now both can affect the real world in wonky ways.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 2, 2003 08:41 AM

Oh! I forgot!
To Random Thought:
The Oracle predicted that Trinity would fall in love with Neo. She never said ANYTHING about his feelings for her. The 5 previous Ones weren't in love with their respective admirers (Trinitys, if you want), and I don't think the Oracle could influence this in any way. It, again, is the 0.1% thing kicking in. She had no way of knowing what would happen - her job was to get him to the Architect.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 2, 2003 08:46 AM

I believe that agents are programs designed to specifically try to remove any anomalies present in the matrix and therefore, keep it as stable as possible. and nothing else.

That explains y they try to stop or kill the people who are about to be freed or are already freed and also the exile programs. (they are the ones that causes errors in the matrix).

Also 'agent smith' said in the matrix 1 that the agents are the vaccines of the matrix.

Posted by: popcorn and coke on June 2, 2003 09:30 AM

sorry, didn't reload the page for some time so i read an old post and answered to it. It was about y agents try to kill(delete) the keymaker when he was needed to bring neo to the source and hence reload the matrix.

Posted by: popcorn and coke on June 2, 2003 09:49 AM

WEll, some answers i tried to work out...or just how im understanding the movie at the moment

matrix is based on the election of its acceptance of the people popullating it. So, everyone inside has already made the choice. The ones that havent accepted Matrix (1%) are freed by the resistence, and then carried to Zion. Neo is a sistematic anomaly that happens every x years (like a hundred). It is supposed to return to the source in order to have all Zion destroyed and then rebuilded again. Zion is like someplace where the rebels go under control and then erased, its just another measure of control.

Well, the Oracle must be good. Its a trivial thing but it works, he has rounded glasses. all good guys have. Then, I think that the Oracle wants people and machines to work togheter, thats why she brings each anomaly (the ones) to the decision of facing the machines instead of continue being controlled, or maybe a greater objective. She cannot make this decision because its the hole mankind future were dealing with. Im not really sure bout this, just waiting 4 revolutions for an answer.

oh, I thing the architect does give choice to Neo cuz Matrix is based on choice... or maybe its just an illusion as the french says?

just speculating.

other things I cant answer;
The arquitect sais "please" like if the Oracle wasnt the mother of matrix, or its for the name of "oracle" that he does so?

What is the objective Smith talks of? controlling everything? what power?

and other I dont remember now...

Also, I would want to put in discussion, what if everything was just another matrix? if there were 2 matrixs and the real machines were just laughing of this battles cuz its just a dream inside a dream... brr..

Posted by: qk on June 2, 2003 11:50 AM

I've read the whole post and I think, as a group, we've got everything figured out that we're supposed to have figured out. We won't really know how Neo stopped the squidys or what the deal is with Smith until revolutions. And for the record, I'm against the whole Matrix inside a Matrix idea: too cute.

Most of the other so-called inconsistencies don't really matter. Why doesn't Neo fight this way or that? Why are there all these leftover and errant programs if the Matrix has been reloaded? What happened to Tank?

What I'm curious about is the One's so-called choice. The architect gives the One a no-brainer: to either go along with the computers' plans and help reload the matrix (and rebuild a destroyed Zion) or let the matrix crash and allow all of humanity to be exterminated.

This time it's not a no-brainer because of Neo's love for Trinity, but let's say she already died in the first film. I still think you could make a compelling argument to choose the "wrong door."

First, helping the computers reload the matrix gets humanity nowhere. Start over. But if you choose the wrong door, there's always a chance the humans of Zion can beat the machines in the real world. Keep in mind that Neo doesn't know of the "slaughter" yet. The last time he was in Zion everyone was confident they'd be able to defend Zion once again. Sure, it's a risk/reward thing, but it's no slam-dunk. What do you guys think?

BTW, I don't think all of Zion is destroyed every time. Yes I think the counsel are the original 23 and the counselor might very well be a previous One, but I think all that machinery is original too. That's why nobody really knows how it works.

Posted by: brickfish on June 2, 2003 12:10 PM

qk: Almost got it - except for the Zion thing. The people in Zion aren't controlled by the machines. It's just that the machines know that the people who have escaped the matrix are SOMEWHERE underground. They find them and kill them periodically, something the Architect says they are getting 'increasingly efficient' at (since they've found and killed Zion 5 times already)

Brickfish: A couple of little points -

1) I agree- we've covered most of the stuff, and the matrix within a matrix is far too cute and practically impossible to implement.

2) Neo's choice apparently IS a no-brainer. The previous 5 Ones have all chosen NOT to save the previous 5 "Trinity"'s. Of course, we all know that this is because Neo is in love with Trinity. BUT, since the other 5 have not been in love, and have all chosen to save Zion, it's pretty save to say that any other argument to choose the "wrong door" just isn't enough. Also keep in mind that the previous 5 were "Ones", not "Neo"s. They were completely different people, but in the exact same situation.

3a) I agree only partially with your destruction of Zion theory. Although it's pretty dumb that people would live in the spot that was the site of the potential extinction of the human race, they must have - they need all those machines underneath to keep them alive. They can't live anywhere else. This supports my theory (see above, last week) that the machines need Zion.

3b) Saying that the council is the original 23 survivors holds some pretty serious implications. That means that all of them know exactly what's going to happen, especially if one of them is the previous One. Which also means that they are condemning everyone around them to death. I doubt that they are the originals - it's also a matter of time frames. Check this out:

Apparently the Nebachudnezzar was built in 2069, according to KP (above), who looked at the nameplate. Assuming that all the ships are periodically destroyed, this one was built after the 5th destruction. Let's assume (I can't remember if they say it in the first Matrix) that the Matrix started up in 2004 (next year, and it makes the math easier). That means there were 5 wars in 65 years - meaning the matrix is reloaded every 13 years. This simply can't be possible, since that would mean that no Zion-born human could be older than 13, and look at Tank and Dozer - impossible.

Now, lets look at it the other way - say the Nebachudnezzar was one of the FIRST ships, and was never destroyed. That means that the cycle runs every 65 years. Say Neo's 20 years old, at the bare minimum. That would make the previous One 85 years old, at the youngest. I don't remember how old the council looked, but assuming the previous one didn't pick 23 babies, they're all going to be at LEAST 85. I don't think that's very likely. Even if my assumption of 2004 to start the Matrix is off, it's not by enough to matter.

Comments? I just thought this one up.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 2, 2003 02:07 PM

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, I have contradicted myself.

Please disregard what I said to qk about the machines not knowing where Zion was. Brickfish got me thinking long and hard about his comments halfway through, and I changed my opinion halfway through the post.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 2, 2003 02:09 PM

OH! Just to add to my theory before, although I don't think the council is made up of the 23 survivors of the last holocaust, I think the council is made up of 23 people BECAUSE of those survivors. 23 leaders in the beginning, and nobody's ever questioned it. That's the way it's always been for them.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 2, 2003 02:16 PM

how is it possible that neo stopped the bots at the end i dont understand how he is still connected to the machines outside in the "real" world?

Posted by: Eryck Molina on June 2, 2003 03:23 PM

i'm still trying to figure out the timeline, but i don't think we can use the Nebachudnezzar as a time reference for the Matrix cycle. let's say the cycle is 50 years: 2054, the first One resets the matrix with the help of a band of cave-dwelling anarchists. then, after the reload, our new inhabitants of Zion get going and some 15 years later build a ship called the Nebachudnezzar.

which brings up an interesting point: if the Matrix cycle is that short, would humans have been able to get their act together fast enough the first time to actually pose a threat to the machines without any assistance? regardless, i think the machines had to give them some technology to make the whole thing work? the first rejects would have had to go somewhere, thus, the machines built Zion the first time, right?

i like matt's idea of the 23 members just mirroring the 23 original Zion founders. then the cycle can be a hundred years or longer. morpheus does make reference to having held off the machines for a couple hundred years (i think). i just wasn't sure how accurate his information was. it could have been just Zion lore, passed down by the original 23.

there are a few other factors that could effect the timeline: how long did the first failed matrixes last? with the technology present, what IS the lifespan of a human? assuming the Nebachadnezzar was built during the first matrix, how much time took place from the beginning of the matrix to it's building and how much time took place from then until the reload? inconveniently, we know none of these things.

Posted by: brickfish on June 2, 2003 04:58 PM

I have a comment to make...it is a little far fetched but I have a free period and nothing else to do:

The humans, Zion in particular, seem to hold nothing to counteract the machines progression. They are numerically out numbered, out armed (emp only), and out strategized. Agent Smith entering the matrix via the mind of a hovercraft captain has already caused the destruction of 5 ships and ended the only counter attack the humans could make. The machines are avoiding Zion perimeter defense and will easily take Zion if something is not done. The only thing the humans have going for them is free will and the absence of logical interpretation. It has shown to be something machines can't understand, and therefore can't factor into the Matrix, hence Neo's decision. They believe they have this under control with the architects plan of luring The One to him, but they can't account for unlogical behavior, becaouse they can't undestand it. I believe Neo alone has no chance at stopping 250,000 sentinels and that help will come from the people within the Matrix. The very people enslaved in the matrix should by now start to have realized that people in leather suits diving through windows and dodging bullets isn't normal. Their best frined forming into Agents is a little peculiar. That such devastation as we saw on the freeway needs some type of explanation. Think of the impact a 50 car pile up and millions of bullet wholes and a flying man would cause in our world. You would want answers? The machines can't just simply delete this occurrence for the same reason they can't delete Neo's meeting with morpheus in the original. They can't erace signals implemented into one's brain, they can only alter them before it occures. For instance the ambush when Neo says he has Dasia Voo. The Matrix is such a vast program they can't stop it and rewind it until it reaches the end and reloads ( they put in the alterations in its reloading, fixing imperfetions) The People of the Matrix will somehow, by free will, choose to leave the matrix. Once again as we seen with neo's decisions, the machines do not understand free will and therefore cannot account for the effect it has on their programs. The same alternate choice may be there for the humans. "You cannot change something you don't understand." While neo is holding his own he will need a miracle to save Zion, why not his fellow humans.

Posted by: A-Mark on June 2, 2003 05:50 PM

Good point A-Mark. That may very well be one of the reasons that finally sets it all free. Also, don't forget that big glass building in the center of... well, wherever... melting like hot butter. Definitely not something you see every day.

I wonder a bit about the Nebachudnezzar. It's a big, heavy, advanced ship. It's possible, just possible, that the Neb has survived in some part throughout. It's quite possible to destroy a ship without vaporizing it. Perhaps the Neb was wrecked, restored, then wrecked again. Such things happen even today with the restoration of warbirds fished from lakes. The Neb is a lot more sophisticated than a WWII piston fighter, but the spirit is the same.

It would become part of an easy-to-imagine mythos, humanity scrabbling back, finding and rebuilding the hulks of ships their "ancestors" built. Speculation, but interesting.

As far as stopping the squids... I think that truely will be something we have to wait for.

Posted by: scott on June 2, 2003 06:10 PM

Just another thing I haven't read here yet.... At the end of reloaded, Morpheus says, "I had a dream, now that dream is gone from me." Maybe he should not have lost faith so fast.

During his speech just before midnight, while he was talking about destiny and meaning, the movie flashed to another ship where a crewmember (the captain?) slipped on a broken walkway while trying to evade an incoming bomb. His fall killed him, and the ship was thus destroyed by the bomb.

This ship carried the humans who were in charge of disabling the secondary power supply. This resulted in Trinity's entering the Matrix to disable the grid, thus getting shot and probably getting Neo to choose the "wrong" door.

The walkway breaking, coupled with Neo and Morpheus being delayed by the Smiths in the hallway (otherwise they would have entered the building too soon and been blown up) shows that Morpheus's faith in Neo and fate in the real world may hold true.

Posted by: jdogg on June 2, 2003 07:35 PM

Wat do u ppl think will be the conclusion of the next and final matrix

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 2, 2003 07:40 PM

????

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 2, 2003 07:54 PM

Have you seen the trailer of Revolutions?
Smith seems to have more abilities, including flying?
In Reloaded Smith is kind of a Virus, but not very important.
In Revolutions seems to be the more important enemy? May be the key?
What do you think is going to happen in MATRIX 3?

Posted by: Marc(Italy) on June 2, 2003 08:50 PM

Hi, something I think about this movie. I really think it has to do with religion...

I think that the "Matrix" is the evil program that infected the "Good" program of God. A program that slaved the sons of God (God soft) just to work for its existance and ever lasting.

A virus that get into the good program and slave the humanity, because of the vanity of human as told in "Second rennaisance part 1", an evil that infected all the world.

But Neo now understands that he is into another program, not controlled by the matrix. That's why he can stop the "squid" at the end of the movie, and eventually can destroy all the machines just if he wants... or maybe with some help if he make believe others and make a revolution in the next movie. Now... who can stop Neo to go flying to the surface and fight with the squids as he did with Smith?

Here is something I found about Krishna and possible the inspiration of my comments...
"The Supreme reveals Himself through His multitude of energies. If the Supreme is the source of everything, then whatever we see--and even what we don't see-- belongs to the energy of the Supreme. Krishna consciousness is not something imposed on the mind. On the contrary, it's already inside of each of us, waiting to comeout, like fire in a match. Chanting Hare Krishna brings out that natural, pure state of mind. Krishna and His energy are fully present in the sound of the mantra, so even if we don't know the language or intellectually understand how it works, by coming in touch with Krishna we'll become happy, and our life will become sublime."

Posted by: matrix on June 2, 2003 09:00 PM

How is Neo able to take bullets out of trinity, if, in fact, hes in the matrix. Is he able to go through physical codes, like trinity, to get the bullet out, or did he just reach in the hole? Also, how did he get trinity's heart started. Is he possibly a machine??? 2 many doors left open 3rd one is to be awsomely mineboggaling!

Posted by: KD on June 3, 2003 12:07 AM

i think the reason that neo cant kill everyone fast, is becuase it looks cool when he has to fight. i mean he is the only one that can win. the reason that he fights all the smiths, is because it looked really cool. if he could kill them all by tilting his head, that would be gay

Posted by: tan on June 3, 2003 02:38 AM

Some points for anyone that's missed it - and spoilers for Revolutions -

1. In Revolutions, the Oracle is played by a different actress (which is a shame). Something big happens to the Oracle. What is it?

2. In the game, Enter the Matrix, Niobe has a conversation with the Oracle that provides a bit of info about what happened to Neo. See here - http://www.geekroar.com/film/archives/000259.php. Bear in mind that the game and the Animatrix cartoons are written by the Wachowski Bros. and should be considered canon.

Here's a cut n' paste of that link -

Transcript from "Enter The Matrix" video game, Niobe and the Oracle conversation:

ORACLE: Niobe.....

NIOBE: Do I know you?

ORACLE: You know me, though you just may not recognize me.

NIOBE: Are you telling me that you are the Oracle?

ORACLE: I know this may not be easy for any of you, change never is. I wish the face you remember was the face I was still wearing, but that face is gone.

NIOBE: If you are the Oracle, tell me if I believe you are.

ORACLE: You don't right now, but you will.

NIOBE: Are you going to tell me something to make me believe you?

ORACLE: Come on Niobe, you know I can't do that.

N: Why not?

O: Because I cannot make you do anything.

N: At least you sound the same.

O: As I said, you may not recognize the face, but who and what I am underneath remains the same.

N: Can I ask what happened?

O: The Merovingian warned me, that If I made a certain choice it would cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word.

N: What was the choice?

O: The same one you yourself will have to make: The choice to help Neo or not.

N: Then Neo is still alive?

O: Yes, he touched the source and seperated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.

N: Can we free him?

O: Trinity can, but she will have to fight her way through hell to do it.

N: Can I help?

O: That's why I called you. I cannot tell you what is going to happen. All I can do is hope that if given the chance, you will find the courage to do what you can.

N: You once told me you knew everything you needed to.

O: I do. I knew everything from the begining of this path to the end.

N: I don't understand.

O: Even I can't see beyond the end.

N: The end? Are you trying to tell me the world is going to end?

O: Yes. If we cannot save it, it will end.

N: You mean Neo.

O: I mean we. The path of the one is made by the many. I have a role to play just as you have yours.

Posted by: Wet Jimmy on June 3, 2003 02:59 AM

Hello to all:

I read a lot of the stuff mentioned here. I made a highly speculative explanation a while back about the gist of the matrix. A lot of the stuff I said was wrong, and I would like to update my insights. Some of you replied to my posting, and I like a lot of the clarifications, however, (especially you Matt), while there is some good stuff out there, there are some flawed views in your version of events…
1- The idea that the One is the result of an answer coming from another “rounded” answer of another “rounded” answer, etc. in “advanced math” doesn’t hold water. Neo was not “brain-programmed” like I said (although that could have been a reason Neo is so “good”), but he is not the result of a “compounded” error either. Besides, Matt, sorry, but there is no “huge” error to be exploited as you claim. There is a small error that can be exploited by the right person. The Architect said that the One is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation. The unbalanced equation is “unbalanced” for a reason… The Architect does not know how to handle the complex human brain completely. Some folks are easier manipulated into making decisions than others. Those that are more “talented” make complex choices on a subconscious (intuition) level that create problems to the exacting nature of the matrix’s mathematics. The Architect cannot predict and control all of these thoughts and subliminal mental “acrobatics”. That is why Neo, the “bending-spoon kid” and other anomalies can do strange things in the matrix (remember that human beings interact with the Matrix through their brains and mental disposition, not their whole bodies). The Architect and the Intuit Program (“mother of the Matrix”), allowed these “uncontrollable” and unpredictable mental impulses and choices to take place, since they can only be done by about 0.1% of the Matrix’s human population. The rest of the population is supposed to be more “reasonable” and less complex, so they can be controlled. When the One is “ensnared” and uploads his “code”, all his mental imprints are uploaded, so that the Matrix can handle more of the rare human-brain impulses (ergo, choices and thoughts!) that can make the Matrix unstable. The odds that a human’s mental disposition and subliminal choices will fall outside of the parameters of the “mental impulse equation” is small, but when it happens, a guy like Neo emerges, since his mental attributes allow him to use his brain in a way the Matrix cannot comprehend through its equation. That is why the equation is “unbalanced”, allowing the Matrix to continue functioning without fully comprehending or controlling everyone’s choices. Neo’s case is rare and powerful, since his brain works outside the equation in many ways (integral anomaly) and he’s not bound by many of the system’s “rules” and hence can “hack” the Matrix with his brain and be faster than agents, fly, change other equations, etc. (these “many mental abilities outside the equation” put together are the “sum” the Architect refers to), and when these “many ways” are understood, they can be implemented into the Matrix to help complete a part of the “remainder” of the equation that the Architect needs. Other anomalies like Morpheus and Trinity are also “talented”, but the Architect doesn’t care about them because their mental dispositions are already restricted enough by the Matrix, and do not threaten the Matrix as much (that is why people lose and die when they fight agents!).
2- Smith and Neo: This is highly speculative, but I think that the Matrix was supposed to be an interface between the human brain and the digital world. As a result, the mental electric impulses can interact with that of machines! Neo, as the One, is very capable of seeing the code an interacting with it. To me, when he attacked Smith in the first movie, they merged, mental signals and digital signals, in a way allowing the program’s (Smith) memory to copy and learn some things from the human’s (Neo) brain and viceversa!! Smith learned how to infect a human brain just like he infects other digital programs!! Neo can infect or jam machines via wireless digital brain waves!! This might be the case when Neo disabled the Squiddies!
3- Zion: Despite what some say, I still think Zion is a rat-lab created by the Architect or some other machine. They created it though previous Ones, so they know where it is and they use it underhandedly. I do agree that the Architect uses it to help him find the one, but it doesn’t make sense that he went through all that trouble for just that. He also uses it to accumulate anomalies temporarily in order to make a more stable Matrix until a big anomaly (the “Big One”) is found to upload the info. I also think he uses it so that his programs (like the Oracle when she used to work for him) can interact with the anomalies to keep them under control, in a certain way. The Architect knows however that Zion can revolt, so he destroys it and safely starts over in his quest to attain more knowledge and fix/perfect the Matrix.
4- The Oracle: She will remain a mystery, at least to the next movie, but she seems to be helping the Architect, since she was the one who told Neo to go seek the “door” with the Architect behind it. Either that, or she was programmed to do so without her really knowing the truth. She was not programmed to be an “evil” entity, but to appear to be a “friend” of the anomalies. Her job was not to “betray and destroy” the humans, but to interact with them. I am not so sure she is an exile. She may seem that way, but we just don’t know! It could be that her “bodyguard” was assigned to her by the Architect so that she can be protected against newly renegaded rogue programs like Smith. Computers can be interesting things. The Oracle might be good at predicting events because she can read mental imprints of people wired to the Matrix and tell what their next likely move will be according to the changing circumstances (something the Architect did with Neo, remember?). When you think about it, armed with specific info, any human can be very predictable, although not 100%. That is why the Oracle is cryptic many of the times.

Posted by: Tony on June 3, 2003 03:00 AM

Some points for anyone that's missed it - and spoilers for Revolutions -

1. In Revolutions, the Oracle is played by a different actress (which is a shame). Something big happens to the Oracle. What is it?

2. In the game, Enter the Matrix, Niobe has a conversation with the Oracle that provides a bit of info about what happened to Neo. See here - http://www.geekroar.com/film/archives/000259.php. Bear in mind that the game and the Animatrix cartoons are written by the Wachowski Bros. and should be considered canon.

Here's a cut n' paste of that link -

Transcript from "Enter The Matrix" video game, Niobe and the Oracle conversation:

ORACLE: Niobe.....

NIOBE: Do I know you?

ORACLE: You know me, though you just may not recognize me.

NIOBE: Are you telling me that you are the Oracle?

ORACLE: I know this may not be easy for any of you, change never is. I wish the face you remember was the face I was still wearing, but that face is gone.

NIOBE: If you are the Oracle, tell me if I believe you are.

ORACLE: You don't right now, but you will.

NIOBE: Are you going to tell me something to make me believe you?

ORACLE: Come on Niobe, you know I can't do that.

N: Why not?

O: Because I cannot make you do anything.

N: At least you sound the same.

O: As I said, you may not recognize the face, but who and what I am underneath remains the same.

N: Can I ask what happened?

O: The Merovingian warned me, that If I made a certain choice it would cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word.

N: What was the choice?

O: The same one you yourself will have to make: The choice to help Neo or not.

N: Then Neo is still alive?

O: Yes, he touched the source and seperated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.

N: Can we free him?

O: Trinity can, but she will have to fight her way through hell to do it.

N: Can I help?

O: That's why I called you. I cannot tell you what is going to happen. All I can do is hope that if given the chance, you will find the courage to do what you can.

N: You once told me you knew everything you needed to.

O: I do. I knew everything from the begining of this path to the end.

N: I don't understand.

O: Even I can't see beyond the end.

N: The end? Are you trying to tell me the world is going to end?

O: Yes. If we cannot save it, it will end.

N: You mean Neo.

O: I mean we. The path of the one is made by the many. I have a role to play just as you have yours.

Posted by: Wet Jimmy on June 3, 2003 03:07 AM

KD, remember that everything in The Matrix is just part of a program. Thus, everything is a code. However, this code follow the laws of physics. Neo is the one person in the Matrix who can manipulate the code and therefore he can actually change the code. Don't really need much of an explanation here, just try to visualize how if somone can manipulate a thing HOWEVER he wants it to can actually do ANYTHING with it.

Posted by: Joe on June 3, 2003 03:37 AM

A couple of points:

Brickfish: About the dating of the Nebachudnezzar - I'm going to abandon this quest until more info shows up. Any timeline associated with assupmtions about the Neb is too short, I think. There are a couple of possibilities at this point - either the Neb was made WAY back before the matrix was ever created (although it doesn't seem to be made for pre-matrix life, unless it was retrofitted with the necessary gear), possibly making the cycle a couple of hundred years like Morpheus says, or we really have no idea of figuring it out! Morpheus says in the first movie that nobody really knows what year it is. Isn't it safe to assume that any modern timekeeping device, based on revolutions of the earth and sun, were abandoned or lost, and a new form of timekeeping was introduced? They're underground! Can't see the sun! Even if they tried to keep a 24-hour day, if they're off by a bit, that adds up. For all we know, the machines have been in power for 100,000 years, the humans think it's been 200, and the Neb was built early in the first cycle. I don't think we can safely ascertain this at the moment.

Tony: I don't think we disagree that much on the math point. I think you misunderstood what I said before - that "rounded calculation of a rounded number" explanation wasn't meant literally - just a way to explain it simply for those who don't know a whole lot of math - obviously you do, so I'll put it to you this way: If there is no compounded error (through any method you like), and that 0.1% error is constant for all, but is only exploited by certain people, how can you explain the LEVEL of exploitation? By your thinking, those that are able to exercise that 0.1% do so, and can do wonky things, no more than anyone else, and no less than anyone else. The One is a "sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation" - isn't that basically one definition of a compounded error? Also, the word "sum" implies iteration in a sequence of calculations. If you've ever dealt with Numerical Approximation in calculus, you know what I'm talking about. It's the same thing. Anyway, I think the lesser troops of Zion are the ones who get away with that 0.1%, or a fraction of that - the greater troops (the people with more influence over the matrix) are the ones who have accumulated a larger error, with the One being the ultimate accumulation.

As for the Oracle, here's my theory: we have NO way of saying whether she's good or bad, because she didn't know what was going to happen in the Core with the Architect. Her purpose was to get Neo there. It's like me telling someone to reach into their pocket and pull out a coin. If they pull out a quarter, you could say my original intent was for them to pull out a quarter, since I influenced them to do it. Same with a penny, or a nickel, etc. But really, my only intent was to get them to pull out a coin.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 3, 2003 09:01 AM

I've read this entire thread and I'm suprised only one person has touched on a very key issue.
Why is it that Bane-Smith cuts his hand before trying to kill Neo? A theory I've seen is it's the struggle between Bane and Smith in his mind and mutilation is the result. Another was that he wanted to know how pain felt now that he is in the "real world." But I just want to bring up the point within the Matrix game...this scene is one of the FMVs in the game, but it is a few seconds longer. Smith cuts the two lines vertically, but then cuts another across the two of them at almost the top. At first I thought into this as he was cutting a symbol for PI into his hand. I know this sounds cheesy but it was just an example i thought of right away as why the matrix will always be flawed. The Architech says that Neo is the result of an unbalenced equation in an otherwise perfect mathematical system, or something like that. For any computer, it will eventually run out of space for some value for a repeating number(i.e. PI) and round it off. So eventually the very small decimal that is just forgotten will eventually build up to produce an anomaly. I know it sounds cheesy to say the "one" is created by mathematical rounding, but if you think about it, somewhere in some sort of code in the matrix there would need to be some sort of fraction that would be repeating. That was my first thought. But after reading a post somewhere else, there was the religious aspect. i forget what it meant, but the symbol for it was two crosses next to each other. This is now what I believe Smith is carving into his hand, but I still believe about the math factor as creation of the one.

I was hoping someone had a really good idea for the timeline for each war of zion, but in watching the first matrix i realized this can never happen. Sure Morpheus' ship is dated 2069, but he even says something like, "We cannot tell what the date is, because no one really knows."

A few other things to note...
1)When Neo sits with the oracle on the bench her candies look a lot like "red pills." Neo takes one but doesnt eat it. Will he need it later?
2)The derogatory please by the architech. Is it that he doesnt want her to be called "the oracle" or that the oracle isnt the mother? Could Persephone be the mother - she is always looking to understand the human psyche...giving neo the choice to kiss her, and trinity's reaction to it. In the matrix game when you play as Niobe, there's a FMV where she kisses Persephone as well to save ghost. And one where ghost kisses her to save Niobe. Why is she kissing everyone? She is definitely a very important, unfortunately thusfar underdeveloped, character for the 3rd movie.
3)The matrix game is VERY important to understanding everything. As well as the Anamatrix, which i have yet to see. The oracle tells Ghost/Niobe that the reason to explain why she doesnt look the same(cuz the original actress died) is "two PROGRAMS which i trusted sold my shell to the Merovingian for the love of their child. I feel that the child will change both this world and yours..." WHO IS THE CHILD?! This is a question that has been plaguing me for a while now. Either it's someone I'm overlooking or someone we haven't been introduced to yet.
4)In another FMV a bum comes by Niobe in the subway station, while shes in the matrix, and says, "72 hours. Thats how long Zion lasted last time." Niobe respnds with,"who are you?" Bum:"Me? I'm just a spectator." He can be seen in previews for Revolutions, so he must be important as well.
5)Who is the guy being escorted out of the room when Neo and the gang visit the Morivingian? They take the time to have Neo look at him, then to have whoever it is look at Neo. Another factor to consider...

My reasoning for some of the ?s i've seen here:
There is not necessarily a matrix within a matrix. I thought this at first, but then disagreed with that. The answer is at this point, it could be true and maybe not. There is evidence for both. I feel smith can exist in bane because he only entered bane's mind in the matrix. This affects only his residual self-image in the matrix to make him look like smith, but in the real world look like bane still. If there were a matrix in a matrix, wouldnt smith look like smith in the "real world" because his residual self-image would want to make him look that way?

The squidys being stopped by Neo. This at this point to could go either way as well. If there was a matrix within the matrix Neo stopped them because he has that power realized after meeting the achitech. After going through the door of light, if i were the achitech i would already be analysing his code as soon as he comes into the room, Neo goes back to the matrix as we are led to believe. Now when Neo jacks out into the "real world" he has the power to feel the squids. So he uses his power but at the cost of getting knocked out. Maybe the "real world matrix" is already corrected his anomaly of the code, but only enough as to weaken neo's powers and knock him out. If there were more than the 5 or so squidys, they coulda moved in and killed the crew as the were now defenseless - eliminating the anomaly till another is born later. That was my long reasoning for the matrix within the matrix, which i no longer believe. I believe it is the real world and Neo can stop them through his connection from splitting his mind when meeting the architech as mentioned in one of the posts above, which is stated again in one of the FMVs in the game. Also when smith got neo's code when neo jumped inside of him, isnt it possible that neo got some of smith's code when smith tried to infect him? Giving him a connection with the machines in some way? That fortunately was a much shorter answer then the matrix within the matrix theory.

Why was smith the only survivor?
He triggered the EMP leaving the ship he was on and the other 4 in range completely defenseless. The squids could read that there was the machine sense of smith in bane and let him live? That's all i can think of.

Finally I want to wrap up this post with what originally made me start looking into things: Everybody in the matrix movie acts like a computer program or interact with one in some way. Some other post actually started touching on this. They all talk about fate in the second movie - their purpose. Which also contradicts where Neo says he doesnt believe in fate and Morpheus says I know exactly what you mean....anyways here it is:

The Matrix - Operating System

People plugged into the matrix - Users

Freed Minds - Hackers

Architech - Compiler

Seraph - Guardian(like Bob on Reboot, ha)

Keymaker - Password(all his keys are passwords)

Smith - Virus(possibly could be much much more)

Hallway of doors - Programmer backdoors

Agents - Firewall(keep "hackers" out of the OS)

Anomaly - Update/Error correction(system control)

Merovigian - Registration(at this point in the movie this is what he acts like. He is holding the keymaker - the "password prog" - keeping it from the "hackers." He wanted something for the keymaker, but Neo offered no why no power "$$$ you pay a company to get the unlock code" What his previous purposed was, i dunno. but he has been around for awhile cuz he says "i've survived your predecessors. I will survive you.")

Twins - Encryption(work with the "registration prog" to hide the unlock code)

Persephone - Crack/Decoder(Neo uses her to get to the keymaker without offering any why or power to the "registration prog." Could also be the "intuitive prog" that the architech speaks of...)
Hope this helps in some way, or at least gets ya thinking...

Posted by: SmithIsTheOne on June 3, 2003 10:25 AM

I just want to add on something else in the role of the one. I feel his purpose is to end all of humanity, which Neo is the only one who does. The machines were created to serve humans, and with no free will, they need humans to carry out their purpose. The AI makes them want to get rid of all humans, but because they were meant to serve humans they don't have the free will to kill off the species. But "there are levels of survival they are willing to accept." So by setting up a bunch of logical ways to get the one to the core they get the one to make the choice to end humanity cuz they can't. One door leads to the creation of a better matrix where the machines still live and another one is born to come to possible take the other door the next time. The other door, which neo takes, is the end of humanity by making the system crash(achieving what the machines want, but cant do because they arent programmed to do.) The machines can only show you the door, but you(the one) are the one who must walk through it.

This all just dawned on me, and if you can get what i'm trying to get across here, it's quite deep on the level its thought out to be. Which is no doubt how deeply Larry&Andy wanted to make this movie. I feel this is exactly the message they wanted to get across. But we know even though this is the purpose of the matrix, neo will still defy that and save humanity somehow.

Posted by: SmithIsTheOne on June 3, 2003 10:53 AM

Just another tid-bit... The head council is right -We need machines, and they need us. Making the conversation between Neo and the councilor more important all of a sudden to me....maybe he was a previous "one."

Posted by: SmithIsTheOne on June 3, 2003 11:03 AM

This is my first post i am a matrix fanatic.
As most of u i'm trying to figure out some questions 'Reloaded' gave me.

There are some realy good points made in here which answered some of my questions.But u gave me others i think some of the questions posted here
even the Wachofksy Bros can't answer or some things they didn't even thought.

In my opinion 'Matrix' like every other movie has
flaws that the writers didn't predict and many of u will be very dissapointed if u don't get the answers u need in the next and final movie.
But i warned u.

I've read here that 'The Bros' said in an interview that there is no matrix within the matrix, meaning Zion IS the real world.If this
is true things are very complicated, if not (which i believe) answers are comming.

My main question has to do with FATE.
Ok the machines are able to control the human fate
within the matrix or manipulate them to think they have free will, and even destroy those outside the system (ZION). The oracle is the answer to this as she can see things comming, but she is a programm, Neo on the other hand has also the gift to see the future, he is a psyhic, but how did the oracle or the Architect knew that Trinity WILL enter the matrix so as for Neo to choose between HER and the Reboot????????
I mean the oracle isn't realy an oracle as she is only software, and no machine could have predicted the EVENTS happened in the real world which led Trinity entering the matrix, otherwise told by Neo not to do so (Who HAS psychic powers).

If there is no matrix within the matrix, meaning Neo and all the others have never left the system,
this question will never be fully answered unless the bros thinks otherwise.

Thats all i have to say for now.
I w'd like u to comment on the above.

Sorry for my bad english.

Bye fo now.

Posted by: Larry Laffer on June 3, 2003 11:53 AM

I just want to first say that I appreciate your posts, smithistheone, and everyone else's as I have read the entire thread.

I too have abandoned the matrix outside the matrix theory for various logical and emotional reasons. I think the trilogy could become quite dark and possibly unredeemable if that theory were true, and I think the plot would be too expanded, making the 3rd movie difficult finish in 2-3 hours. Two pieces of evidence from reloaded that go against this theory that you touched on and I would like to reiterate are:

1) Bane/Smith cuts on himself in Zion to feel what pain is like in the real world. Real-life "cutters" claim they do this to get a rush and to feel "alive." This is my interpretation for Smith's cutting behavior. I think he's anticipating/relishing what it will feel like for Neo a moment later when he buries that knife into his back.

2) If the the outside world was just another program, then Bane should look like a Smith after being "copied." It's simple logic but I guess I'm simple-minded sometimes.

Can't wait to end the discussion and see Revolutions!

P.S. Why do you think the word "revolutions" is plural? Is that a hint?

Posted by: g-man on June 3, 2003 01:22 PM

Smithistheone: Well done - I agree with you on every point, pretty much. Never thought of Persephone as the Mother. If you read above, my argument for the Yin/Yang Architect/Mother still holds true with Persephone - she's emotional, feeling, impulsive (and female), while the Architect is the exact opposite. And I DO firmly believe that the powers Neo and Smith manifested in this movie are a direct result of their merge.

On the math point, I agree with you on the Pi rounding (I posted a couple of times on this topic - once this morning, even, I think), but not Bane carving Pi into his arm. What would be the purpose? Another thing I thought of is: what if you turn that symbol 90 degrees? It turns into an "unequal" sign - basically a symbol of the source of Neo's power. Furthermore, because of the code imprinting, it could be the source of Smith's power! Thoughts?

G-Man: I think Revolutions is plural because of the Bible - yes, back to the religion argument. Although it IS a revolution, I believe this is hinting to REVELATIONS, the last book in the Bible, which describes the end of the world.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 3, 2003 01:45 PM

Hi

After seeing the film only once my initial theories on leaving the cinema were as follows, and since my idea goes off on a bit of a tangent to the well thought out posts above I decided to feature it here if for nothing more than for curiosity value:

My initial thought on how Neo stopped the sentinels was that Neo had not actually left the Matrix rather the Architect had tricked him into thinking he had left it hence he still had his powers and the 'wait something feels different' line.

The more I thought about it though pushed me towards the 'outside world' (Zion etc) actually still being part of the Matrix, a place where the 'rebellious' humans could be kept giving them all some purpose.

With this being the case I went off on one and decided that the whole reason for the Matrix (humans as batteries etc) explained by Morphius in EpI could be false. After all if the 'real world' is really part of the Matrix then everything the people of Zion had discovered could be a big lie.

So why the Matrix? My conclusion was that the Matrix existed and everyone in it (and I have no evidence of this) to keep one person alive or contained. The whole program was created to keep their brain stimulated. Neo, The One, is actually the embodiment of their conscious thought. The part of their brain that is rejecting/fighting the matrix program. This means no-one is actually real, the Architect, Oracle, Morphius etc are all 'scripts' there to ensure the smooth running off the program and to control the inevitable reboot.

My idea could use many of the cleverly thought out theories written above although on reflection I don't really believe my idea anymore. If it did prove to be the case it is a bit of a 'then I woke up and realised it had all been a dream!' scenario which would be terrible.

Anyway sorry for wasting your time (_!_)

Posted by: foley_mk2 on June 3, 2003 01:49 PM

can somebody explain me whats the deal with the guy named Pain? (i dunno if it's his name in the english version, i saw it in french*cauz of my gf)he's the guy who tried to kill Neo in zion, and to convince the other captains to check up on morpheus and the gang...

i want to know more on the french guy who was keeping the keymaster, and those two goolish white "german lookin" bodygards, they were cool and scary a bit.

i didn't cleary understand the ending..when whats is name...is talking with the other pilots that something about explosion happened... was the only survivor, on one of the zion ships(the guy with the broken leg who fell, ..i dougt it..) or the one of the two guys who wanted to leave the matrix, but who got caught by smith??

smith wants to be neo? is that right? some people have been talking about it,..smith lost fonction because of neo,???

i understand the restarted zion thing, and neo's role, as a "error scanner"...

anyways , i probably will have more questions later on...

Posted by: dragon_385 on June 3, 2003 04:37 PM

ok soo wata da deal wit dis movie y is tank ded in dis 1 CAN SOME1 PLZ ANSWER MY QUESTIONS DIS TIME

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 3, 2003 06:26 PM

No one knows what happened to tank. all we know is he died because Zee says she lost two brothers. As i was looking for how he died, it turns out he was just written out as the result of a legal battle between the Bros and the actor who played tank. We can just assume while he had the energy left to kill off Cypher, he eventually died from his wounds. Here's a link to one of the many sites that explains it....somewhat.

http://www.zap2it.com/movies/matrixreloaded/story?article_id=16995

Posted by: SmithIsTheOne on June 3, 2003 09:40 PM

SnOoPdOg. Maybe somebody will answer your questions if you ask them in English, instead of the Ali G type language you've been using so far?

Original posts by SnOoPdOg:

I have read this page from beggining to end and read all ur comments.
I've gatherd some quetions. Can some1 plz answer dem

1) Y do the robots need a zion @ all when the matrix is reloaded
y can't every1 stay in da matrix. Y does the one have 2 pick a bunch of ppl 2 populate zion

2)Y is neo oferd a choice between reloadiing the martix and Trinity.
If the machines really need humans y cant dey just force him 2 reload the matrix

3)Y is Smith the only survivor

Thx yall


Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 1, 2003 07:18 PM

oh yeah 1 more quetion wat hapens 2 da ppl plugged into da matrix wen its realoaded


Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 1, 2003 07:38 PM

Now can some1 answer my questions PLZ

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 1, 2003 11:19 PM

Wat do u ppl think will be the conclusion of the next and final matrix

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 2, 2003 07:40 PM
????

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 2, 2003 07:54 PM

ok soo wata da deal wit dis movie y is tank ded in dis 1 CAN SOME1 PLZ ANSWER MY QUESTIONS DIS TIME

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 3, 2003 06:26 PM

Sorry SnOoPdOg. I just had to take the piss a bit because I hate the type of abbreviated writing style that you use. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure this will be full of spelling mistakes, and won't be grammatically correct, but it shouldn't need deciphering.

Anyway, I'll try to answer your questions because you said PLZ so many times.

1. The Architect is unable to create a perfect Matrix, so 0.1% reject it and "wake up". Knowing his Matrix doesn't quite add up, the Architect is at least able to anticipate the emergence of the anomoly ("While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here"). He creates an elaborate ploy to manipulate The One into returning to the source, thus restarting the cycle. Zion is allowed to exist as it is a necessary deception, part of the master plan. The people of Zion feel that they have a purpose - to defeat the machines and bring down the Matrix, but ironically they encourage The One (their real purpose) to fulfill the prophecy and return to the source, making Zion an important part of the whole propehcy/deception.

I don't understand what you mean by "y can't every1 stay in da matrix", so I'll skip it for a second.

About picking people to populate Zion, this is simply so that Neo can begin the Prophecy again (the one Morpheus passes on to Neo in the first movie, about a man who could change things, who will come back as The One...). This will set in motion the cycle that will end up with the new "The One" re-returning to the source, re-reloading The Matrix, re-repopulating Zion, re-restarting the Prophecy, ensuring the new "The One" re-re-returns to the source, re-re-reloads the matrix, re-re-repopulates Zion... The anomoly grows to a point where it could threaten the whole system, so must be wiped out, so this whole prophecy is just a method of control. Oh, and in case you're wondering why 23 people (a seemingly random number), this probably is more significant than it seems. I can't remember much from school biology classes, but aren't human cells made up of 46 chromosomes? Don't the sperm and egg have 23 chromosomes each, fusing to create the 46? I don't know why 16 female and 7 male - someone should really look into this - but the Wachowski Bros. like their little details, and it seems that nothing is included without purpose...

Anyway, back to "y can't every1 stay in da matrix". Are you asking why 0.1% reject it? If so then the answer is "Choice". Some people can't accept a world without chioce (apparently) - I think Neo says something along those lines. Which leads to your next question:

2)Y is neo oferd a choice between reloadiing the martix and Trinity. If the machines really need humans y cant dey just force him 2 reload the matrix.

Humans need choice - "nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level."

This applies to Neo too - he can't be forced to return to the source to reload the Matrix, but must choose to do so. Ironically, the Architect has no choice but to give Neo a choice.

3)Y is Smith the only survivor. We won't know this until we see Revolutions, just like we won't know whether Zion is real or a 2nd Matrix, or how/if Neo stopped the sentinels. There are lots of theories, speculation, arguments, but in truth we don't know yet because this will be answered in Revolutions. Unless the answer is in the game, which I haven't played yet...

oh yeah 1 more quetion wat hapens 2 da ppl plugged into da matrix wen its realoaded

Nowhere in the film is this answered, so none of us know. Either everyone dies when the matrix is reloaded and the machines start growing a new crop, we all wake up to reality only to return to the new matrix with no memory of waking up, or the Matrix can be reloaded whilst we interact with it, without us becoming aware. Maybe we'll find out in Revolutions?

Wat do u ppl think will be the conclusion of the next and final matrix. Nobody knows. No point asking. Not the right place to ask.

ok soo wata da deal wit dis movie y is tank ded in dis 1 CAN SOME1 PLZ ANSWER MY QUESTIONS DIS TIME. If the answer wasn't in Reloaded it will either be in Revolutions Enter the Matrix, or the Wachowski Bros. aren't telling.

Posted by: ;dfkvhb;fadkgjvh;afdjkv on June 4, 2003 12:20 AM

Another of the Wachowski Bros. little details just occurred to me - the window/amount of time Neo has to reach that special door was also seemingly random. Was it 314 seconds (about five minutes)? Isn't that PI (3.141592...)? That definitely seems to fit in with lots of other areas - the whole cycle thing (pi is used when calculating anything to do with circles), as well as possibly accounting for the anomoly - doesn't pi go on forever in a seemingly random pattern, making accurate calculation imposible? I really can't remember much from school...

Posted by: ;dfkvhb;fadkgjvh;afdjkv on June 4, 2003 12:32 AM

Hello to all interested in Matrix Theory:

Matt: I know exactly what you refer to. But the problem is that the 0.1% is not the amount of the error, and it is not constant for all! In numerical approximation, you can’t really know the exact amount of the error, otherwise you wouldn’t need to approximate!

To all that would listen: The 0.1% was arrived at empirically. By observation, 99.9% of the people accept the Matrix because their mental impulses (choices, thoughts, brain signals, etc.) are covered enough by the Matrix’s logic “gates” created through equations. 0.1% is NOT the amount of the error, but the amount of PEOPLE that have and use mental impulses (broadly called “choices”) that are not covered by the equations and are hence anomalies. The Architect does not know how many mental impulses remain to be covered, and that is why he says “A remainder” not “THE remainder”. The anomaly he refers to is the incomplete part of his equations… the missing mental signals he needs to learn about in order to complete the equations. Eventually, someone (like Neo) will be born with enough of these missing/unknown mental impulses to create serious problems. Once the Architect learns more, he will be able to complete his equations so that they cover more of those unknown mental impulses. The earlier versions of the Matrix crashed because the system didn’t handle unrecognized (“imperfect”) mental impulses well. The new version does, but this obviously will allow anomalies to do strange and “unauthorized” things.

Also, “sum” does not necessarily mean varying iteration. If a person (like Neo) possesses and learns to use too many mental impulses not covered by the Matrix (“an unknown remainder of the equation” that needs to be found) the results can be disastrous, because such a person’s mental impulses will escape the logic gates (or “firewall”) and roam freely to do the hacker’s bidding in the source computer. That is why the One is needed, so that his mental impulses can be guarded against in the future (similar to anti-hacking measures done today in the computer industry). The “sum” we are talking about here is simply the addition of all the mental impulses that Neo possesses, not covered by the Matrix’s equation. For example, if there were 1000 total mental impulses remaining to complete the mental control equation, and Morpheus has 15 and he learns to use them, then he will be able to hack into the system, but there are limits to what he can do, since all of his other mental impulses are covered and controlled by the rules of the Matrix. If Neo possesses a sum of 300 remaining/missing impulses, he can do more damage, but he still can’t fully control the system since some of his other mental impulses are in fact restricted by the Matrix (he can fly, etc. but he still has to fight, struggle, and move physically from place to place, right?). In other words, Morpheus is like a slow 386 and Neo is a like a more powerful Pentium IV used to hack when hooked up to the Matrix. This answers the question about “exploitation level”.

When Neo’s impulses are uploaded, he will lose all of his “edge” when hooked to the Matrix, since the Matrix will recognize and “firewall” them. That is why the movie makers obviously had Neo choose the other door. By learning some of the uncovered “mental code” that Neo has, Smith was able to also circumvent some of the logic gates (rules) created to restrict programs (like the agents) within the Matrix, and was able to free himself somewhat like Neo. As I said before, I believe that perhaps the Matrix effectively makes human brain signals and digital signals the same (interface!) so machines/programs can learn to imprint information on peoples brains, and viceversa.


Tony.

Posted by: Tony on June 4, 2003 02:54 AM


Hi again ,i got no anwser so i'm posting again my question somehow simplified.

How the machines knew that Trinity WILL enter the matrix world at the end of the movie so as to present Neo with a choise.
Machines don't predict the future, What if Trinity didn't enter The matrix, whats the choise for Neo then.

And something else to think about.

1)Neo seems to have a WiFi capabilities in order to stop the squids in the real world.

2)Morpheus believed Neo is the One ,so does some of zion people, But neo is the sixth, seems like people of Zion don't take history Lessons, OR they don't keep history records OR The Previous ONE did't tell the truth to the 23 people he released last time Zion was destroyed and the matrix rebooted.

3)The Above questions leads me to another,
How the hell did these 23 people from the last destruction had the technology to build the city of Zion? the councelor says he doesn't understand how the machines that support the city work. This can only mean that the machines didn't destroy Zion for a long time now OR they didn't completely destroy the city the previews times, they only killed it's inhabidants because they need the free people for some reason(test lab?).

4)Seems to me that the agents don't have a clue of what the ONE mean and whats his purpose for the architect otherwise they would have led him to the source first time they got him. But something else bothers me with this one,
In the first movie they want the codes to enter and destroy Zion, i don't see the reason for this since the one was not found yet by the arcitect, why destroy something he needs to complete his task?
Why destroy the Keymaker before he completes his task?(AGENTS)

5)Ok this is also a hard one, The agents enter the mind of someone connected to the system, That person looses his personality,and his SELF IMAGE and seems to me he is unable to fight What got into him.HE IS POSSESSED. Smith one the other hand can turn all people trapped inside the matrix
into him,Why the machines don't let him do it? or create a billion or more agent like programs to cotrol the minds of the people they FEED uppon (ENERGY) it's another version of mind control isn't it? THATS THE HOLE PURPOSE OF THE MATRIX right? people POSSESSED are very much alive and give energy to the machines, and we havn't saw a human trying to get free from the program that possesed him.

5)Based on the above, Why The Machines with all the technology don't Create RETARDS? they are easier to control and they too provide energy?
(OK no movie then where is the fun in that)

I'm anticipating some Answers and comments on the above.
Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Larry Laffer on June 4, 2003 04:36 AM

Sorry for my english again i havn't been practising for a long time now.

By the way I'm from Greece.

Posted by: Larry Laffer on June 4, 2003 04:42 AM

asd;Asdj; whatever,

the hole pi thing would be a perfect analogy between what the architect is trying to do. Lets compare PI with Matrix, the architect is trying to have a definitive PI, to get all the digits, each time Matrix is reloaded, he learns the next digits, so he aproaches more and more to the perfect system where no anomalies take place, but we know that PI goes on forever without any posibility of simplification.

Posted by: qk on June 4, 2003 04:58 AM

yo larry laffer made a great point about the retards...wouldn't that make the most sense for the machines? why do they have normal human beings around that can create a threat? think about it, it makes sense..plus i think there are a lot of people that would go to see a movie where millions of retards were chillin together.

Posted by: joey on June 4, 2003 09:58 AM

heyyy..just thought i'd add in my 2 cents worth of thoughts about this cuz i am a big matrix fan and being that i am an arts student in uni i have a great interest in philosophy and shit like that.

i want to throw in the theory that the french dude and his wife (sorry cant remember their names..it's WAAYY past my bedtime here and i am SOOO tired) could be one of the past versions of Neo and Trinity. notice how he knows a great deal and stuff like that? i believe that he was once 'the one' in a past version of the matrix before it was reloaded. i believe he chose to enter the door that would save zion and is now placed into the matrix as yet another computer programme.

this is interesting as well as you can hear later when his wife brings the trio into the toilet and tells them how her husband was similar to neo before but has changed ever since. i believe she talks about when they WERE in love and how loveless they have become. she craves a kiss from neo to remember what it feels like. now that she IS a programm she has lost emotions such as the rush of kissing the one you love.

another point i thought i might add is that do you realise that most of the 'free' people in zion comprise of african-american ethnicity? i think this is fascinating but also proves a point. i believe that the ones that would most likely 'feel' abnormality and the imperfection of being in the matrix would be the ones who are not, in simpler terms, 'living it up' - the minorities. so they would be the first to realise that something is up and be free of the matrix. get it?

what do you guys think?

Posted by: chaz on June 4, 2003 11:02 AM

hey guys,

everyone should read the two links at the top of this page before commenting. whether you agree with them or not, some of you are bringing up points that have already been brought up in these links.

we can still debate them, but let's not keep bringing them up like they haven't been mentioned yet.

for example: chaz, the corporatemofo article mentions that zion is populated by african-americans and hispanics because white suburban matrix dwellers driving their matrix SUVs to the matrix golf course would be less likely to reject their world as invalid. it's an interesting point that works for me!

Posted by: brickfish on June 4, 2003 11:29 AM

Tony: Well put! You stuffed me on that 'no need for approximation thing'! However, I disagree on a couple of things.
You're saying that 99.9% of mental impulses are covered by the matrix. For starters, you are assuming that the number of mental impulses is finite, which I don't think they are (somebody in the know can correct me on this) - aren't brainwaves distinct to an individual, not a specific thought? Any thought would evoke a different reponse from the thinker, making that impulse unique. The Architect can't account for infinity. Also, according to your theory, the re-integration of the One every time narrows that 0.1% gap, since his aberrant mental impulses are 'firewalled'. The consequence is that the One gets less and less powerful every cycle.

I think of it like this: a person's thought/action is accurately anticipated (allowed) by the matrix at a probability of 99.9%. If you look at the situation in an infinite/probabilistic way (which I think is more realistic, practically), then you have no degradation of the 0.1% margin. Once the One is integrated, he/she would lose all power, but the NEXT One would be hardcore again.

Chaz: Kinda cool about the Merovingian.... I'll think about that.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 4, 2003 12:06 PM

What is the point of continually destroying Zion?
Why not just wipe it out and be done with it. Does continually destroying it give the matrix and master computer purpose?

Posted by: Adam on June 4, 2003 02:57 PM

i think the reason the keep destroying and letting zion keep getting rebuilt is to give the human hope which is shown in the movie the entire time that way even without knowing it they are being controlled in and outside of the matrix

Posted by: Eryck on June 4, 2003 06:28 PM

brickfish: thanx for the advice dude. didn't get a chance to check out those sites last night cuz i was really tired. but hey, they gave interesting insights as well that i found fascinating.

eryck: although you have a good point there, i don't think it stops at hope alone. i believe that the machines created 'The One Prophecy'. this is actually a device by the machines sent into the 'real world' where they are further perfecting the Matrix-illusion time and time again. once knowledge is brought upon them the cycle begins again. i believe with every matrix that IS reloaded the 1% of 'non-believer' people is narrowed.

eventhough i myself am a Christian i believe this can be paralled to buddhist beliefs where a person is reincarnated with every death cycle into a new life to start anew until all wrong is fixed.

Posted by: chaz on June 4, 2003 07:33 PM

I have a question. When the matrix is reloaded who get unplugged first, the One or the 0.1%. Also, why would Smith want to realease the EMP early (if he did it on purpose), I thought he hated machines? This question is hard, why would the agents want to kill the One if the machines need him?

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 4, 2003 08:04 PM

remember in the first movie how they said the matrix reflected a version of the twenty first century ie our century well think about it now a days people are thinking a jesus christ and a savior therefore when they machine who where originally programmed by humans wanted a way to control them and keep them calm if you think about who now a days is most likely to turn to religion a white rich guy or a poor hispanic black guy who doesnt have squat to his name hence forth the machine brought around the "one" to existance

Posted by: Eryck on June 4, 2003 11:10 PM

o yea ps i think you guys should watch the animatrix it explains a couple of things i think one of the most essential things in this movie is human survival no matter wt what cause remember there is not one religion that doesnt promise some kind of ressurection hence the reload part of the matrix

Posted by: Eryck on June 4, 2003 11:13 PM

sorry i really cant be bothered reading everything above but has anyone considered the possibility of a matrix within a matrix?

Posted by: bob on June 5, 2003 12:06 AM

yeah sorry I just read the article.... but I really dont grasp how neo can physically stop the sentinels with a wave of his hand when he is unplugged from the matrix -and just a mere mortal-

Posted by: bob on June 5, 2003 12:29 AM

Personally I think the agents “try” to kill Neo because they want him to explore his mind to its full potential. If the architect integrated Neo into the core before he met the agents, then the whole exercise would be futile. The machines would learn nothing new from “the One”. They’ve done it five times before, I’m sure they knew that if they kill Neo, like they did in the first film, that he would rise again. Who knows, maybe they were the ones that resurrected him.

Posted by: Fluffy Louis on June 5, 2003 12:50 AM

Hi Matt:

If you read my posting again a little more closely you’ll see that nothing says that 99.9% of the mental impulses are covered. Again, 99.9% and 0.1% has nothing to do with the actual mental impulses. 99.9% is the approximate number of PEOPLE UP TO NOW that are not capable of rejecting or escaping the logic gates of the newest “choice allowance” version of the Matrix. That percentage could actually fluctuate over time. For example, if a virus infects the human-growth fields and some humans are born with a brain “disease” that allows them to think in a “different” way (have you seen a madman recently? ), more anomalies and dangerous Ones will be the result, and the 0.1% of “crazy” or “talented” people will rise. Likewise, like I said, the Architect does not know how many mental profiles/impulses are remaining, and that is why he says “A remainder” not “THE remainder”! Even the greatest supercomputer nowadays has to take time to decrypt complex computations. It might take the Architect a long time before he can fully control 100% of all human beings, even the “mad” and “imperfect” ones, assuming that mutations are held at bay.

You are right about the potential infinite mental impulses… The way humans transmit information in the brain is identical for all, since we all have neurons. It is not like some of us have silicone brain cells, right? However, no one (even the greatest brain surgeon) can predict how slight mutations/differences in a particular person’s brain composition can alter the way their brain operates to the last minute detail. That is why the arrogant Architect in all his “perfection” still has to chase down the Ones!! And that is why he says “A remainder”, since he doesn’t know when it will end. But he is a machine, so he has all the time in the world. I never said anything is finite… the only thing finite is the NUMBER OF PEOPLE in the Matrix. So the Architect does not need to control 100% of all mental impulses, all he wants is to eventually control 100% of people nearly 100% of the time! This is a BIG difference! As more Ones are captured, the 0.1% (approx) of people-anomalies will be reduced (the Architect isn’t stupid, and he isn’t wasting his time). At one point in the vicious cycle (it might take millenia, who knows), the Architect will probably only have to live with the occasional Morpheus, instead of dealing with a more constant string of guys like Neo. But if a powerful One rebels and refuses to relinquish himself before suitable control is established, it could be all over. I don’t know, but the lessons Neo picked up from fusing with Smith will be invaluable when it is time to take down the machines in the real world… he already took down a couple.

Like many folks, I don’t buy the “Matrix within the Matrix” idea. The man-machine interaction experienced by Neo with Smith is far more likely to blame for Neo’s ability to dominate machines and Smith’s ability to dominate humans.

Tony.

Posted by: Tony on June 5, 2003 05:45 AM

After finally catching the Animatrix, I have to say to everyone, it is definitely worth seeing. Very cool to catch the background of how man and machine eventually had their falling out, the blackening of the sky, and how the war was fought as a slaughter of humans basically. Also very cool to see how the Osiris discovered the digging machines - and the fact the CG looks phenomonal as it was done by the people who made the Final Fantasy movie.
For all the people who have seen it, maybe you could give some insight on "Kid's Story." As I mentioned in a previous post, the new Oracle says that "I believe the child will be important in changing both this world(matrix) and your own(real world)." But no one knows who she is talking about. So I wonder if the child is the annoying kid in Reloaded...they took the time to introduce him and the fact that Neo didn't save him, he saved himself. They also dedicate one of the cartoons in The Animatrix to how he got out, so....maybe he is the child? Neo and Trinity both refer to him as "the kid." He doesn't get a name at this point....hey, he even saved Neo's life, without knowing it of course. He must have some intense power to wake himself up out of the matrix without any help from Morpheus and crew... What are your thoughts on this?

Oh and SEE THE ANIMATRIX!!

Posted by: SmithIsTheOne on June 5, 2003 06:08 AM


The Matrix-Real world its not posible: the random factor.

Hello, first of all im Spanish, sorry if my english os poor, Zorry :-)

I send this to take note of one thing that make the posibility of Sion being the real World teory really inestable:

Ok, first of all the dream of neo, and the premonition of trinity being shot, asuming Neo, Matrix and the oracle know this premonition...

Well, lets ask, ¿how finally happens?: Trinity enter Matrix to fulfill the premonition, ¿Why?

Because the third Ship of Sion, the Vigilant as been destroyed, and then can't make the work are doing (shut down the optional electric power of the site). BUT be are talking here about the "supossed" real World!.

How in the hell, can know Matrix and all the others than the Squids will find the Vigilant Just in the time?, and more... How they will know that one tripulant will be killed because one stair fall by ACCIDENT!!, this is a completely random item, can't be "premonitioned" by none, except of course... If this is not the real world, if Sion was part of Matrix then all these events can be perfectly know before time...

And i dont think is a Matrix-in Matrix, i better think about it like Sion its also Matrix, the plugs and connections, are only like "doors", exactly like the doors that connect places in Matrix.

Well, this is just my little 5c about this movie, i have seen it yesterday, and after read all the above letters i love say something.. :-)

Please waiting some replies :-)

Posted by: Kalisto5 on June 5, 2003 07:16 AM

Hi again

Kalisto5 u are 100% right i agree with u.
i wonder if u read my previous posts yesterday and the day before.
There is no way the machines could have predicted
the things happened in the 'real' world.
So how did they know that trinity will enter the matrix to save the day after the ship accident?

Some may say that they read Neo's mind (because he was the one having the dream unless they gave it to him) but i wouldn't bet on that. U see this happens every time (6th One), so they give him the same choise everytime, even if in past times he may not have been in love with Trinity.

Lets see if the Brothers give some answers in the next film because i don't think anyone in here can give a real answer only speculations.

Did u read my post about the Retards, i think only Adam did!
Lets expand it a little, Why don't they use animals as batteries like horses for example or many others and make a ZOO matrix that they can easily control, animals produce energy too.
bullshit!

Machines can use earth heat from the planets core they can feed uppon, or wind power, u can see the clouds in the sky that hide the sun, moving extremly fast in the first movie which means WIND and Lightings!!!! thats another power source, with those many clouds there can be many electrical storms.
Right!

I think machines are STUPID they could have fed uppon everything, instead they used the worst thing they could,,,,HUMANS. Bad for them.

Thats the reason Neo and his gang will thriumph in the Last movie because they are dealing with stupid machines, thats why.

I already see many dissapointed among u,
U can say i'm cynic or something.
But i'm more like pissed off,
I realy loved the first movie and i liked the second but i'm afraid I or WE will not get the answers we seek on the third, Reloaded gave to many questions that Revolutions will not handle.

Thats my thoughts.

Have a nice day/night.

Posted by: Larry Laffer on June 5, 2003 08:42 AM

Oh and the Matrix inside the Matrix , or the expanded matrix (doors and hallways to Zion) is probably false by the fact that Smith is not the same outside the Matrix, he only posseses the victims mind.

He bleeds in the real world while he gets beat up in the matrix and has no scratch not even teared clothing.

This makes it almost imposible to have another matrix unless it is a completly diffrent version,
but if the machines have this cool version why don't they use it in the first place.

Posted by: Larry Laffer on June 5, 2003 08:56 AM

Ok.

Larry and Kalisto5:
1) Along with the "why don't they make the Matrix a black void" question, humans have way more harcore brain activity as compared to animals. They'd need many times the number of animals (horses, if you want) to get the same wattage out.
2) I don't think the machines knew that Trinity was going to go in if they attacked a certain ship. Think of it this way - all ships have to be close to the surface to broadcast to the matrix. The sentinels are out in force, and they know exactly where Zion is. Hell yeah, they're probably going to find a ship that's broadcasting and kill it. Maybe it was Trinity's ship in the last cycle. Maybe it wasn't. Doesn't matter. It's more than reasonable that they would find one of the three broadcasting ships and kill it. The only significance in Trinity coming into the matrix this time is that she was in danger and Neo is in love with her. He wasn't any other time, so it wouldn't have mattered.

Tony: This is getting interesting now! I know you didn't directly say that 99.9% of brain impulses are covered, but that is kind of what your previous claim translated to - if the Architect is slowly compiling errant impulses to control humans, then it's the cataloguing of impulses that makes a human subservient. Therefore, 99.9% of the matrix is fully under control, meaning 100% of the impulses OF that 99.9% of people have been accounted for by the Architect.

Let's take this another way. You say that 99.9% of humans are under control - I agree. But WHY? If all impulses are unique (which I believe we both agree on), then the re-integration of the One only serves to take away his power and nobody else's. You mentioned the 'remainder' dwindling during every repition, but there is no hope of it ever disappearing, since the matrix is based on an unbalanced equation. No matter how many constants (impulses) the Architech accounts for, the equation is unbalanced - the matrix is purposely and fundamentally flawed.

My argument follows those lines. I don't think there is ANY narrowing of that 0.1%. Nobody other than the One is really a danger to the machines, and re-integration only serves to nullify the One (which is supported by the unique brain impulse thing). I mean, you may say that this system isn't perfect, but I think it is. The machines have a system down - it obviously works, except for this time, but there's no way they could have accounted for that anyway - the One made a choice. Thoughts? I'm almost hoping you punch a hole in this one!

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 5, 2003 09:19 AM

can someone explain.... if Zion is part of the matrix- which would explain neo's premonition of Trinity's events, neo stopping the sentinels etc.... then have we not actually seen the "real" world as yet???

Posted by: bob on June 5, 2003 09:50 AM

I thought most of us were in agreement that Zion is the real world? Please read the string.

Posted by: Matty on June 5, 2003 10:13 AM

ok.....sorry to ask this..... ive read it all......

why does the matrix need to be reloaded from time to time?

Posted by: hen on June 5, 2003 01:45 PM

humm...

Posted by: keymaker on June 5, 2003 11:23 PM

Hi Matt:

You are getting warmer, yet you are still not quite there! First of all, we do not agree that the way humans process information in the brain are unique to every individual. For example, when you try to pick up a spoon, you’ll lift it just the same as I or any other human, so there is little difference in our mind/arm impulse, even if you suffer from neurological problems! The WAY humans transfer information in the brain is the same, and hence we all think in very similar ways to accomplish the same things. The difference is in the person’s ability and choice in utilizing his/her brain, and hence we have smart/stupid/crazy people. The Matrix interprets mental impulses and yields a proper result through equations. You are still confused by the numbers. You are incorrectly assuming that because 99.9% of the people accept the Matrix, 100% of the 99.9% people’s general and subliminal mental impulses are “controlled”. This is NOT the case! Once again, 99.9% is the amount of people that are convinced ENOUGH to accept the Matrix, hence their “choice” is agreeable and are not ultimately capable of rejecting the Matrix. Acceptance of the Matrix is the ultimate goal of the Architect, and that is why his unbalanced equations work so well with 99.9% of the humans. FOR EXAMPLE, if the Architect controls 90% of a naïve/stupid person’s impulses, the person might still choose to accept the Matrix as the “real deal”. The Architect DOES NOT NECESSARILY NEED to handle 100% of all of a person’s mental impulses in order for the person to accept the Matrix. Smarter and “psychic” people like Neo and Morpheus might have a hard time fully accepting the Matrix if only 80% of their mental impulses is properly handled. These people’s usage of their brain is more complicated than the average layman, and hence utilize pulsations not understood by the Matrix… a good sum of their advanced mental impulses (“choices”) fall outside of the equations and are hence anomalies (we would call them “geniuses”). The mishandling of their intelligence or “talent” will lead them to reject and start hacking/controlling things within the Matrix, and this is what the Architect wants to avoid as much as possible. Trapping the One is like trapping Einstein… once you learn to handle his advanced mental impulses, you learn to convince more and more “simpler” humans as a whole. The 0.1% is expected to drop as more is learned and improved. It is erroneous to think otherwise, since 99.9% people control is pretty close to the objective and the Architect continues to improve the Matrix. The beauty of real-life complex unbalanced equations is that they allow flexibility while they can be balanced over time as more is learned. Have you ever seen a chemist working on unbalanced chemical equations? Your take on the usage of unbalanced equations is somewhat flawed. A complex unbalanced equation is supposed to eventually be balanced as much as possible; it is not supposed to just sit there uncorrected forever. I hope you can finally see the light a little better here.

Tony.

Posted by: Tony on June 6, 2003 01:15 AM

Hi Larry Laffer:

Good questions…

A- Trinity: Remember that Trinity went into the Matrix BEFORE Neo went in to see the Architect!! The Architect simply tracked her signals and he knew she was in there fighting a snitchy agent, so he didn’t have to predict anything. He also read Neo’s mind, so he knew she was his girlfriend and that he was in love. He also manipulated the whole situation, so he knew what the intruders were going to do.
1- Neo and Squiddies: I commented that the Matrix effectively makes brain signals and digital signals the same. Remember that Smith used to order Squiddy strikes on real-world ships in the first movie!! As such, its possible that Neo took some operational information of the Squids when he merged with Smith, and learned how to disabled them. Smith in turn learned about the human psyche and figured out how to control it.
2- The One and Zion: … Or maybe Neo is the first One the architect told about the previous Ones. The previous Ones probably never knew there were others, so the “history” was lost! He probably only told them that Zion was to be destroyed.
3- Destruction of Zion: There are two (or more) possibilities… a- Either the machines only killed the humans in Zion without destroying the structures, so that the next 23 person council could populate it without “know-how”, or b- The rehabitation of Zion takes thousands of years, and they “evolved” into an advanced society. Maybe blueprints were “left” behind to speed up the process. The Architect never specified how long the whole process takes.
4- Clueless Agents: I think the Architect is manipulating everybody, including his agents. All he probably wants is to cause a sense of urgency to speed up the emergence of the One so he can fix the Matrix faster. He knows how to get to Zion, but programs his agents to be clueless so that they wreak panic in the human population so that they try hard to find the One fast, before Zion is destroyed. It is a big manipulation.
5- Agent Powers: The purpose of the Matrix is not to create mass confusion. The agents are supposed to be “discreet”. A billion Smiths all over the place will create confusion to the point Matrix humans will probably reject it. That is why they don’t allow him to do it, and that is why there is just a handful of agents. Agents only possess people when they have to, and their only purpose is to find and kill people using “pirate” connections into the Matrix. The Architect manipulated them so that they think that their “mission” is to end all “pirate” activity by destroying Zion.
6- Retards: The entire body needs to be healthy to grow properly! The machines want Caviar Beluga, not rotten eggs!!!! :) They don’t think they need to grow “retards”. They underestimate humans and find them inferior, imperfect, and relatively easy to control. Morpheus and Neo are exceptions, not the rule.

Tony.

Posted by: Tony on June 6, 2003 02:09 AM

Hi again!
Ok Tony u do have a point. But...
A- The architect couldn't know the verdict of whether trinity lives or dies by that agent, but he told Neo she dies,(Trinity lived). He could have also lied about it or say he caught all the group Morpheus,niobi and the others to see his reaction into lieing.He also told neo if i remember well enough he can choose between destroying Zion or destroying Zion,(The zion destruction is inevitable since it happens every time, so Neo would be stupid not to save her.) especialy if he loves her. i think the architect wanted to see the reaction of Neo since he was in love.He might even wanted Neo to take that door (don't know why yet).
2)Squids I think are not Smiths or any other agents pets he didn't directly order the squids to attack in the first movie which means the order should be first proccesed be some other program which controls them.He said to order the squids to attack, he did'nt raise his hand and said drop dead or something, like Neo did. (don't want to hear about the hand move).
Oh and i don't think the architect or the source gave some extra powers to Neo like controling the squids, that would be stupid. Tell me also every time the matrix gets reloaded squidies stop to function until the system is up again; dont't think so. Squidies might be influenced from inside the matrix but not control by it.
Try to answer This one

Machine want humans to get energy, to do what with it? build a prison for the human mind, grow more humans in fields and destroying Zion; There must be more to that. Seems like the directors told us nothing about the machines yet. We only have seen the prison, no way the hole planet is a prison, and no way every machine is connected to the matrix. Try to imagine every computer,tv,radio,refrigarator,etc(machine) on the planet is connected to the internet(matrix) which is very unstable with bugs(NEO) and viruses(smiths) and many hackers(zion) trying to break it appart.(BOOM!!).
2) u are wrong about Neo beeing the only one that the architect tells about the previous Ones , u can see their reactions clearly in the screens behind Neo, (Five? three? four?...)
3) i agree to the part machines did not destroy the city only wipe out the humans.
and i also think that they provide the energy to the city or where does Zion get electicity for these huge machines that support the city. Dont tell me from the core, i'll laugh.
4)ok agents(who exist before the one is even born every time) clueless, people clueless , architect god of matrix. Do u know the dna Factor? All the Ones look alike, don't they? It is he who creates the One every time. Maybe he likes to have fun with him who knows.
5)maybe u are right but i think we WILL see a billion smiths in the last movie. Watch the preview of matrix revolutions where Neo is walking among an army of Smiths.
6)Caviar beluga does not bite, humans do.U can never underestimate your creator, do u underestimate god? u can reject him,choose to fight him,but he created he can uncreate. this should be the first rule in A.I. or we will have to face A Matrix or a bunch of Terminators in the future.
oh and retards do grow properly.
try this also, take a human and cut his feet or hands, he can live, he can still produce energy. and will not be a threat if he suddenly awakes from the matrix. These are told precaution measures.Some one rejects the matrix, kill him, why bother correcting the 0,1% error since its easy to avoid.
U are a manager in a company inside a large building and 0.1% of the employes are destroying the company because they don't like the building.
U don't build another building that fewer employes would reject , U FIRE THEM.

Thats why machines in the movie are stupid.

By the way smiths want's to get out of the matrix he is disqused from our smell.
Go where have a hawai vacation outside the matrix;
Explore space;
Go for hunting;
Have robot sex;
I mean did u see the real world.

Posted by: Larry Laffer on June 6, 2003 08:49 AM

And another thing,Machines might have the instict for survival, but thats not the reasons they destroyed/enslaved the human race, we are not a threat to them we use them. did a A.I. Supecomputer wake up one morning and said "ok i bored to today, i don't want to work any more", and the use said "i will unplug u if u don't cooperate".
"ok i'm smarter, i don't forget, i'm improving, why bother with these idiots, i'll destroy them, NOONE will unplug me! U'll all see hahaha.." BOOM.!

Man thats stupid.

bye for now!

Posted by: Larry Laffer on June 6, 2003 09:04 AM

Tony:

Although I think both of our explanations hold on the percentage thing, I'm willing to say you could be right. However, I STILL hold to the belief that there is no narrowing of the 0.1% gap. You are wrong about the uniformity of brain impulses. True, we all feel/thing things the same way biochemically (through chemoreceptors, etc), but the way each brain receives and processes those signals are completely unique.
Using your example of two people picking up a spoon, the following variances could occur:
1) One person's hand is more sensitive than the other
2) One is colourblind
3) One has a memory of being beaten by a spoon
4) One remembers spoonfeeding their child with a baby spoon
5) One person's hand is numb at the time
6) One person has motor-control problems
7) One person has recently lost an arm and tries to reach for it with a 'ghost' arm

See what I'm getting at? Although the basic action is identical, the cause and effect brainwaves of each person would be completely different. Hell, somebody could be reminded of a song to do with spoons or something. The claim that one person's brainwaves can be used to map the same occurances in someone else is just false.

The other thing is, assuming you are correct and there is a narrowing error - come on, you have to at least concede that that gap will never close.

Matt

Posted by: Matty on June 6, 2003 11:34 AM

Hey,

I have I thought to add in on your interpretations of the minds which reside within the 0.1% of the Matrix. I think these people consist of the ones who can detect the presence of the artificial signals and distinguish them between reality. Sensory neurons are going to be absorbing the signals and relaying them to the CNS (central nervous system) The CNS then relays the sensory impulses to be freely interpreted by the brain. If the brain is able to sort false impulse from reality the mind is contributing to the unbalanced equation. The only way for the mind to realize the change in impulses is for the owner to fully believe he or she is in array of artificial impulse. Therefore the anomaly consists of those who are able to realize they are in the matrix by a 100% persuasive choice. I don't think that the machines can comprehend this full persuasion of the mind, free will, therefore they cannot account for it within their mathematical figures.

Posted by: keymaker on June 6, 2003 07:09 PM

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go here I found this site about matrix reloaded

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 6, 2003 08:43 PM

Oh yeah, nobody bothered to think about this question. What is the architect. Is he a machine, a program, a human?? If he's a machine then how did he get where he was. Also, that room where Neo and the architect were in. Was that in the matrix or in the real world or somewhere in between??? I remember it being in the source. Whats the source????

Posted by: SnOoPdOg on June 6, 2003 09:05 PM

Matt:
Sorry to say it, but you are DEAD wrong! I can't waste time corresponding with you until you brush up on your basics!! The method of signal transmission in the human brain is the same, no matter how differing the physical attributes, speed, and other mental biases are! If you can't understand something so simple, OH MAN!! We are DONE having intelligent conversation! Don’t worry, just go back and study, and all your confusion will disappear. Since the transmission method is the same, a common medium can be attained to interpret what the wildly differing signals mean to do as a whole (that is what the Matrix does). On the narrowing gap, come on now Matt, if you work on improving something, you eventually iron out errors, narrowing any undesired results... this is basic sense of logic, not rocket science. I pity the fool who works so hard for so long and never makes any progress at all. This is beginning to get silly, so like the other folks, I am leaving this forum, so, Good bye!

Larry:
You need to re-read my posting!!! Nothing was "given" on purpose to Neo... I don't know what half the stuff you wrote means... first of all, you don’t know what the Architect told the previous Ones, so my idea is still possible, even if not probable… Smith could order the real-world strike! Otherwise, his “buddy” wouldn’t have told him to do so!! … Again, machines already think that humans are “retards” compared to them… You are right about the lies and deceptions of the Architect, you can’t trust his assertions.
The only other thing I can say is, I had fun with the ramblings. Bye.

Tony.

Posted by: Tony on June 7, 2003 06:37 AM

Snoopdog:

This is my last posting, so read intently:
The Architect is a super-robot. If a robotic machine is his "body", a supercomputer is the "brain" part of his body. The different functions (thinking, moving, etc.) are done through artificial intelligence (AI) programs residing in his supercomputer brain. He was one of the most advanced models when AI "was born". As such, he can learn stuff and even upgrade himself both physically and "mentally". All machines utilize the high BTUs in the human body and turn the thermal energy into electricity required for their survival. Producing electricity any other way is cumbersome and difficult, since there are no other high-concentration sources of energy (the sun is blocked, and oil is probably all gone!) and they consume lots of energy. The human image you see in the Matrix is not how the Architect actually looks like in the real world. That is his chosen human image within the Matrix. He plugs himself to the Matrix through a network connection, similarly to how the humans are plugged in. The room he uses to meet with Neo is in an isolated part of the Matrix, but both of them are obviously physically apart in the real world. The source is not in the room, but behind the door to Neo's right when he was facing the Architect. The source is the master computer where the main Matrix program code resides.

Tony.

Posted by: Tony on June 7, 2003 07:15 AM

Larry Laffer: I have to completely disagree with your idea of why the machines should just kill the ones who reject the matrix and not bother reloading it. First of all the machines work and live for one thing: perfection. They want to get the matrix as perfect as possible, and though it never will, they want to get it closer everytime. They also manipulate the One so that they can study the free will of humans, which they dont have/cant comprehend.

And actually you are right: a computer did just say one day that "hey, i dont want to do this no more. i dont get any respect from you humans. you go die now." Model#B166ER, according to the Animatrix, were the first machines to turn on their masters. The machines killed humans because humans wouldn't accept them as equals and wanted the earth divided. so when the machines had their part of the earth(01 as they called it) and their economy flurished better than any other human country did, humans set up boycotts and naval blockades on them. so in retailiation, the machines built an army and started to destroy everything. when the remaining humans accepted defeat, they were enslaved and put into the matrix.

Posted by: SmithIsTheOne on June 7, 2003 08:29 AM

zion is definitely not real. it's a part of the matrix. how come oracle, a computer programme prophecise about the real world? & how come agent smith come to the real world? & neo stopping the sentinels by an emp? if someone has an answer please mail to me.

Posted by: vijay on June 16, 2003 02:41 PM

the matrix summed up . there are so many people in the matrix, probably billions, that eventually someones mind will percieve the matrix , this happens because of sheer numbers of people in the matrix that eventually it just happens .when the first matrix was created a simple program called a cookie kept track of of all the minds to awaken. after the 2nd matrix was reloaded the cookies were compared and found to be very simmilar thus the prophecy begins. neo meets the orricle which is the cookie she tells him to choose and he does exactally what hes expected to do because he is unaware of what the prophecy really is just a record of what has happed 6 times before in the matrix neo cannot really save anybody for if he infects the main core with his code more than likely every one in the matrix would start wakeing unto their deaths as there would be no way to care for the millions who will awake to a horror worse than the matrix . the one fails every time because he chooses love over humanity which is really the only way to save it for now . in the third movie morpheous will come to uderstand this and think of a way to hold off the machines long enough for a new plan to be hatched . lets face it, it would take years to free all the people in the matrix imagine the task of feeding and clothing and shetering the millions that would awake and what of the millions that die and are flushed into the system with all the survivors , no not a pretty sight indeed. ps trinity is added by the archetect because it realises what will happen if neo joins his code with the matrix ie, the program does not want to be terminated.. I could be wrong

Posted by: Juxtiphi on June 16, 2003 09:58 PM

the matrix summed up . there are so many people in the matrix, probably billions, that eventually someones mind will percieve the matrix , this happens because of sheer numbers of people in the matrix that eventually it just happens .when the first matrix was created a simple program called a cookie kept track of of all the minds to awaken. after the 2nd matrix was reloaded the cookies were compared and found to be very simmilar thus the prophecy begins. neo meets the orricle which is the cookie she tells him to choose and he does exactally what hes expected to do because he is unaware of what the prophecy really is just a record of what has happed 6 times before in the matrix neo cannot really save anybody for if he infects the main core with his code more than likely every one in the matrix would start wakeing unto their deaths as there would be no way to care for the millions who will awake to a horror worse than the matrix . the one fails every time because he chooses love over humanity which is really the only way to save it for now . in the third movie morpheous will come to uderstand this and think of a way to hold off the machines long enough for a new plan to be hatched . lets face it, it would take years to free all the people in the matrix imagine the task of feeding and clothing and shetering the millions that would awake and what of the millions that die and are flushed into the system with all the survivors , no not a pretty sight indeed. ps trinity is added by the archetect because it realises what will happen if neo joins his code with the matrix ie, the program does not want to be terminated.. I could be wrong

Posted by: Juxtiphi on June 16, 2003 09:59 PM

just thought id clear sumat up: smith took over bain because whilst somebody is connected to the matrix any information is wrote into their brain (like an harddrive), like when neo starts his training in the first film, all the fighting shit is wrote onto his brain. All smith does is makes a copy of himself onto bains brain, thats shite about there being a matrix within a matrix

Posted by: mere_speculations on June 19, 2003 05:41 PM

just thought id clear sumat up: smith took over bain because whilst somebody is connected to the matrix any information is wrote into their brain (like an harddrive), like when neo starts his training in the first film, all the fighting shit is wrote onto his brain. All smith does is makes a copy of himself onto bains brain, thats shite about there being a matrix within a matrix

Posted by: mere_speculations on June 19, 2003 05:41 PM

Another things id like to clear up is that when Neo stops the sentinels at the end he IS in the real world not still in the matrix, if he were tricked by the architect morpheus, trinty or link would have contacted him to warn him because he will still be plugged in and they could see that, duh!!!

Posted by: mere_speculations on June 19, 2003 05:44 PM

Yup, me again, another thing id like to clear up is that if the matrix was to be reloaded all the people plugged into it would be killed as their mind will be taken away from their body when the matrix is shutdown (the body cannot live without the mind: morpheus matrix 1), duh!!!

Posted by: mere_speculations on June 19, 2003 05:47 PM

mere_speculations wrote:
"Yup, me again, another thing id like to clear up is that if the matrix was to be reloaded all the people plugged into it would be killed as their mind will be taken away from their body when the matrix is shutdown (the body cannot live without the mind: morpheus matrix 1), duh!!!"

Interesting thought. What happens when the agents 'take over' a body like in the first film. Does that person die or do they just get knocked out for the duration?
Perhaps the Matrix has an ability to temporarily knock out all humans while the program is reloaded.
Plus I agree that Zion is in the 'real' world, and is probably related to the machine city 'zero-one'. It seems too much of a compilation for there to be one matrix inside another.
I'm still struggling about the concept of 'The One'. It seems that if he is not re-integrated with the Source at a regular basis, it creates an imbalance which can lead to a crash. Therefore, the Architect creates a situation where 'The One' is compelled to visit.
This sounds very much like my computer. Some programs do not behave perfectly and over a period of time create memory leaks & other corruptions which eventually cause a crash. A regular reboot prevents this.
'The One' is simply the only one capable of performing the reboot.
( Just some wild ramblings. Free free to criticise. )

Posted by: Paul M on June 20, 2003 06:48 PM

What will happen in ther third one you guys?
I have no idea does anyone if so thought please

Posted by: Paul on June 20, 2003 07:49 PM

What will happen in ther third one you guys?
I have no idea does anyone if so thought please

Posted by: Paul on June 20, 2003 07:49 PM

Hi,
I saw the movie twice before fully getting it... (fully equatesto bout 95%). There are somethings i dint get... in the architect scene he gives him 2 choices, quoting him... " The door to your right leads to the Source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the matrix, to her and to the end of your Species." I got the salvation of zion stuff 24/16 etc... now the other part.. he says save trinity and end of ur species... whats that???? the matrix is still there!!! i mean zions destroyed but the matrix is still there.. so how is it the end of our species... Another thing... why did Smith want to get to the source... Smith claimed he wanted everyth... but then y did he goto the source,... the oracle had said earlier corrupted programs can either go into exile or go back to the source wheere they face deletion... So y did smith goto the source?? his cloning thing was ok... he is like(or gonna become as i've seen from Matrix Revolutions preview) the neo for machines... my reasoning hes the only machine who has learnt how to grow... wven tho its not in the physical sense... seee each of the 6 neos evolved into bewter versions.. so after being freed smith wants to get evryth. and the matrix in a matrix theory sounds all interestin but i dunno what it will turn out to be... cant wait for Matrix3..
Someone pls try to answer my questions.

Posted by: Nikhil on June 23, 2003 03:15 AM

think Zion and the Matrix are together "One Matrix". Zion represents 1% and the matrix 99%.
Zion, as many said, is a place for humans who refused to stay in the original matrix.

I think this clears many issues.

Something very important that everyone has to notice:
In the 1st matrix movie, the little chinese boy who lived in oracle apartment gave Neo a twisted spoon. However, in the 2nd movie and before Neo and his crew members take off and go to the matrix leaving Zion, another boy gave Neo that "twisted spoon".

Now think with me, how could a spoon in the matrix world (the imaginary world) reach the Zion world (the real world) ?
So, I think both worlds are one world.

Posted by: Ahmed on June 23, 2003 03:49 PM

I support the theory that cheese is good and I like it a lot too.

Posted by: CheeseIsGood on June 24, 2003 02:20 PM

Larry asked why the machines didn't use an other way of producing energy. The answer might just be if I remember well my biology courses that men have a far better efficiency in transforming energy than any other system build by men.

Posted by: schuhss on June 28, 2003 09:29 AM

A lot of these 'explanations' don't make sense.
First, if the Matrix needed 'The One', then why does Agent Smith kill him in the first movie? Or, why do the Agents continue to try and kill Neo and his buddies.
Also, if The Oracle is simply there to herd Neo into reloading the Matrix why does she need a program (Chinese Guy) to protect her? If her purpose is to help Neo save the Matrix why would the Matrix try to kill her?
And I'm uncertain with why people think that the Matrix purposely created The One. In Neo's conversation with The Architect I thought I heard the Arch say that because the Matrix is a complex machine based on mathematical equations that eventually you would have an anomaly such as Neo.
This is why they created the agents. To simply search and destroy this anomaly and prevent him from detroying the Matrix.
And finally, when Neo blew up the mainframe, how come the Matrix didn't die? Once the building blew up, the computer should have died also, right?

Posted by: Hank on July 1, 2003 12:52 PM

What I don't understand is, what made Neo different from the previous Ones? Okay, he fell in love with Trinity- was it just that before none of the Ones had love making them choose the wrong door?

Also, is each reloaded matrix the same as before? That is, with the same people, same history of life, same personalities? Like a time loop? 'Cause then Neo would be like he is before, meet the same people, fall in love with Trinity again. And would have done before.

The architect didn't look that worried... I'm guessing thats because he's like a program or something himself. So although he sees Neo take the wrong door he knows he's done all he could do. So who *does* care? Is there a big machine-daddy that understands the relationship between humans, matrix and machine? Who's bringing it all together?

Posted by: Jeane on July 3, 2003 09:18 AM

Here's my take. I think that the whole thing is about purpose. Neo said the problem was choice. I think subconsiously the people who live in the matrix accept the program and don't need to choose anything. For the one percent remainder they are aware of the choice to reject the program. Instead of having the one percent cause errors and crash the system the machines simply give them a choice to fight back. Hence the second matrix or the real world. This works and all of the errors are checked but every hundred years the anomoly or the one shows up. Since they can't fix his error they use him to reload the matrix with code they inserted into him at some point. (The kiss, The cookie in the first movie or something) I think they were lying about the choice of doors. I think they knew he would choose the trinity door. The problem is Smith's purpose. After 5 matrix's they never saw him coming. I think he will have a big part in the third flik and that will save everybody. The reason why they have to destroy Zion is because of this. People who choose to fight back are freed into the real world (2nd matrix) Their purpose is to win the war. Eventually the war has to end or else their would be no purpose to fighting. (They need a purpose or else they would cause errors The architect says that things worked as long as they were given a choice) I think every hundred years their are too many errors to contend with so they destroy Zion and the errors to make room for more people from the matrix who don't accept the program. This way new errors (humans who become aware) are given the chance to choose to fight the system and this keeps them under control. When the one is born the system becomes overloaded so it's time to clean up the system. For the machines instead of fixing the bugs (which they can't) they give them a choice. I'm sure Smith also has a purpose that will be explained. He even talks about it. Smith doesn't even know his purpose yet. I don't think anybody can explain what happened in reloaded because that was the Wachowski's purpose. To confuse the hell out of everybody before the big payoff in November.
Anyways that's what I think. It's probably complete bull and makes no sense it's just my opinion.

Posted by: Jay on July 3, 2003 02:21 PM

Merovingian is the real creator of the Matrix. I will start at the most obvious clues which is Persephone. Her name comes from the Greek goddess who is the wife of Hades, ruler of the underworld or Hell. If Persephone is the wife of Hades in greek Mythology then in the movie she is the wife of the man we can relate to as Satan. Satan is Jesus' counterpart and thus Merovingian is Neo's in the Matrix. The real battle is between Merovingian and Neo and so Merovingian is the creator of the Matrix. So who then is the architect? Since Merovingian is the creator of the Matrix he simply made the architect in order to tempt Neo just like Satan tempted Jesus to stray from his mission, the architect wanted Neo to choose the door on the right to stop him from fulfilling his mission. If Neo had choosen the other door and reset the Matrix then all would have been lost and Neo would have been tricked into choosing the wrong path. Instead Neo saved Trinity. Another clue is the building wired with explosives. Isn't it coincidence that both the building that Merovingian is in when we first meet him is wired with explosives and the building with the mainframe? Its because it is the same building. The reason they needed to get to it from the backdoors is because the elevator does not go to that floor. We learn from the Oracle that Merovingian only recently acquired the keymaker but when Neo meets Merovingian he says that he has met all the other predecessors. Why would the others be sent to him if he didn't have the keymaker? Because their encounter with him was not to get the key but to destroy the Matrix and where the others failed Neo will succeed. He said that he would survive Neo and runs away so to me thats foreshadowing that he will not. Also, the Oracle is hiding from Merovingian and not the architect which means that the real power to destroy programs and create programs (as we already saw with the cake) lies with Merovingian and not the architect. As well, the architect says that Persephone is the mother of the Matrix so why should the architect be the father when the partner of Persephone is Merovingian? Also, the greatest lie comes from Merovingian which is the whole causal speech. This is the juxtaposition to the belief that Neo has about being in control of his own destiny. Neo being the Christ figure understands the truth and Merovingian is trying to deceive in order to maintain control of the Matrix. Also, the Oracle states that Merovingian is one of oldest and a very dangerous program. This is because he is the creator. Merovingian wants to delete the Oracle so badly because she is teaching Neo more about choice and leading him to the truth about the Matrix. Her interest in the destruction of the Matrix is that she is an exile program anyways. Like Agent Smith, she lost her purpose when she was supposed to be deleted and made her own purpose which is now to help humanity defeat her enemy as well. She knows the future not because its determined but because she is a program and since they are in the Matrix she understands how it guides them to make certain choices. Like she said, its not important what choice you make but why you made that choice. What is Agent Smith then and why does he want to kill Neo? Well he explained this already. He lost his purpose just like the Oracle and just like she wants to destroy the Matrix, Agent Smith wants to destroy Neo. He is a tool of Merovingian but he works by infecting other people. Perhaps he is analogous to sin and how sin can consume and take over a person's life. In the case of Bane, it is so consuming that it has pervaded him in the Matrix and in the real world. How was Neo able to disable the Sentinels? Perhaps it is a miracle? Im not sure about that. Maybe if someone has an idea about that based on what I've posted that would be interesting to hear. Considering all this, I think the Matrix in the Matrix idea is false

Posted by: Chris on July 4, 2003 11:10 AM

Chris, just for the record: Persephone in Greek mythology was the daughter of Demeter (Mother Earth, sister of Zeus) and was captured by Hades (Merovingian?), to be his wife (she didn't actually choose to be)
Maybe this can shed some more light on your interesting theories about who is The Mother.

More mythology facts (maybe helpfull):

Nebuchadnezzar: Ruler of Babylon around 600BC, built tower of Babel, tempel of Mardouk, gate of the Gods.

Osiris: Egyptian god of the dead. Also brought into connection with Seraphis (Seraph ?), for the Greek and Romans this god united the powers of heaven (Zeus) and underworld (Hades).

Morpheus: Godly power that shapes our dreams (Morphine?). Son of Hypnos, Greek god of sleep.

Niobe: Daughter of Tantalos. She had 7 sons and 7 daughters. Punished by the 2 children of Letho for mocking Letho for having only 2 children, Niobe was turned into a rock and all her 14 children were killed. She became a symbol of punished human pride.
Tantalos was punished for his attempt to test the gods omniscience by serving his own son as a meal for the gods. Interestingly Demeter was not paying enough attention, distracted by thoughts about her captured daughter Persephone, and ate a piece of Tantalos' son. (punishment for Tantalos: 'tantalization')

Ajax: Ajax major: Killed him self by throwing himself on his own sword, after losing a battle with Odysseus. Ajax minor: Shipwrecked and died after returning from the city of Troy, as a punishment for violating the temple of Athene.

Q.: Which crewmember died by falling into a metal pole, was that Ajax?

Posted by: Sebastian on July 5, 2003 10:00 AM

Also interesting:

Merovingian Times (5th - 7th century)

Pacts between free men of lower social status and powerful men have already existed in Merovingian times. They were based upon service from the one side, and protection from the other side, the patrocinium (Althoff, Ganshof). The relation between them was hierarchical, power on one side, obedience on the other (Schulze). Especially the kings could thus attract men, and in Merovingian times these royal retainers were called antrustiones. They formed a special sort of personal guard with a number of privileges. For example, if any of them was killed in a fight his relatives got a higher weregild than for a non-member (1). This special status the group had in common with the Old Norse hirð, only the latter organisation lasted until the 13th century. The Merovingian antrustiones fell into decline when the Carolingian familiy rose to kingship in the 8th century.

Posted by: Sebastian on July 5, 2003 10:16 AM

Hi,
I saw the movie twice before fully getting it... (fully equatesto bout 95%). There are somethings i dint get... in the architect scene he gives him 2 choices, quoting him... " The door to your right leads to the Source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the matrix, to her and to the end of your Species." I got the salvation of zion stuff 24/16 etc... now the other part.. he says save trinity and end of ur species... whats that???? the matrix is still there!!! i mean zions destroyed but the matrix is still there.. so how is it the end of our species... Another thing... why did Smith want to get to the source... Smith claimed he wanted everyth... but then y did he goto the source,... the oracle had said earlier corrupted programs can either go into exile or go back to the source wheere they face deletion... So y did smith goto the source?? his cloning thing was ok... he is like(or gonna become as i've seen from Matrix Revolutions preview) the neo for machines... my reasoning hes the only machine who has learnt how to grow... wven tho its not in the physical sense... seee each of the 6 neos evolved into bewter versions.. so after being freed smith wants to get evryth. and the matrix in a matrix theory sounds all interestin but i dunno what it will turn out to be... cant wait for Matrix3..
Someone pls try to answer my questions.

Posted by: Nikhil on July 7, 2003 10:32 AM

SEBASTIEN... GET A LIFE DUDE!!!!

Posted by: Nikhil on July 7, 2003 10:38 AM

ok ok, I just saw the movie for my second time, and afterspening some serious reading time here today, I understood it almost perfectly. My only question is about Neo's conversation with the architect. Can somebody please specify exactly what happenes depnding on which door Neo goes through. thank you.

Posted by: Gattsu on July 10, 2003 03:11 AM

Hi,
I have a few doubts.
1. what happens to tank from part 1?
2. what does the bent spoon means? it was in matrix in first part and now its in real world? is there any importance attached to the kid who bends the spoon in the first part? is the spoon a symbol for anything?
3. If Neo could feel 'smith' everytime he comes close to him bcos of some connection between them, why cant he feel the vibes when that guy tries to kill neo with his knife? why doesnt he recognise that he is actually a copy of smith?

Posted by: booter on July 11, 2003 03:49 PM

this is my take on a few points....

smith is infected with the ability to choose by neo, this ability to choose gives him more will power than the people in the matrix which is why he can copy himself.

neo is simply the anomaly, and the architect needs him to be diseminated in order to remove the virus that is smith by finding the code that relates to choice and removing it from smith, thus stoppin and reversin his cloning thingy.

the matrix is never reloaded, it continues on, all the architect said is time between re-ocurences of anomalys... the matrix fails if the concious ability to choose is not removed, if neo chooses to have his code dissected then the matrix simply carries on.... if not it fails as i said above.

The oracle exists to lure neo to the architect, thats all. all though her feedin him cookies and candy does seem to be significant in some way...

zion exists to hold and account for permutations of choice, thus allowing the maker of the matrix to "cull" anomalys when the one finally arrives.

anyway thats my view, and im probably wrong

Posted by: sufu on July 12, 2003 08:39 PM

this is my take on a few points....

smith is infected with the ability to choose by neo, this ability to choose gives him more will power than the people in the matrix which is why he can copy himself.

neo is simply the anomaly, and the architect needs him to be diseminated in order to remove the virus that is smith by finding the code that relates to choice and removing it from smith, thus stoppin and reversin his cloning thingy.

the matrix is never reloaded, it continues on, all the architect said is time between re-ocurences of anomalys... the matrix fails if the concious ability to choose is not removed, if neo chooses to have his code dissected then the matrix simply carries on.... if not it fails as i said above.

The oracle exists to lure neo to the architect, thats all. all though her feedin him cookies and candy does seem to be significant in some way...

zion exists to hold and account for permutations of choice, thus allowing the maker of the matrix to "cull" anomalys when the one finally arrives.

anyway thats my view, and im probably wrong

Posted by: sufu on July 12, 2003 08:40 PM

Does anyone know the purpose of the Alpha Agent Smith vs. NEO cut scene (Trailer of Revolutions). I mean if Smiths represent all the humans, and Neo should represent the machines. Who do we really want to root for?

Posted by: DKNY on July 13, 2003 03:35 PM

ok ok so i think you lot have made me get this movie(finally!) so, the matrix was created blah blah but %1 or howeva much rejected it?they got out of the matrix and began"recruiting"others from the matrix to zion to repopulate it? and oppose the machines and free everyone to bring back the "real" world,the architect seein this created a "the one" to go into the matrix,and manipulated into making the wrong choice "ie destroying zion for the sake of saving his girl" so the freed people will all be destroyed and there will be noone opposing the matrix?? and no instabilities untill the next rejection of the matrix tries to oppose it? plz email me on the adress,if it aint there then its spikey20001@hotmail.com (someone who actually knows) to explain whether i'm right or not and help me understand this movie. thanks!! spikey.

Posted by: spikey on July 18, 2003 04:13 AM

In response to booter:

1. Tank didn't die in the first movie. However, the actor that plays him was a total jerk after filming the first movie; the directors and producers hated him. So they wrote him out of the second movie. I guess we're supposed to assume that he died from his injuries in the first movie or died from some incident that isn't in either movie.

2. The spoon in the first movie is meant to inspire Neo. Since the matrix and the things in it like spoons aren't real, Neo can manipulate them.

The appearance of the spoon in the the second movie can mean two things depending on whether you think that the "real world" is another matrix or not. If the "real world" is another matrix, the orphan delivering the spoon to Neo is meant to be a hint that the "real world" is really a second matrix where spoons can be manipulated (and other, greater, things can be done) just like where Neo saw the first spoon.

If the "real world" is not another matrix, then the orphan delivering the spoon to Neo is meant only to inspire Neo and remind him that anything is possible.

3. Neo doesn't "feel" Smith in the "real world" either a.) because the "real world" really is a real world and Neo doesn't have all his powers from the matrix or b.) because it is not until he fends off the sentinal attack that Neo realizes that he has powers in the real world and until he realizes he has powers, he can't use them.

Hope I'm not too far off base.

Posted by: wolverine on July 18, 2003 10:52 AM

In response to sufu:

Some people suggest that by feeding Neo cookies and candy, the Oracle is somehow altering his programming. That's an interesting theory but I think that's reading too much into it.

The cookies and candy are the Oracle's way of testing whether Neo trusts her. If you accept food from someone, that means you don't think she is trying to poison you. So when Neo accepts the food from the Oracle, she knows that he trusts her and that he is believing all the things she is telling him.

Everything about the Oracle is about getting Neo to trust her. Take her appearance. She appears as an gentle, elderly, African-American, woman. There is a cultural stereotype of elderly African-American women as being pure hearted and good natured. There is a stereotype of the elderly as being wise. The cookies and candy are just supposed to make her grandma-ish so that Neo trusts her.

Posted by: wolverine on July 18, 2003 11:06 AM

Why is Neo given a choice in the first place? Why can't the architect either force him or trick him into reloading the matrix?

Posted by: roc on July 18, 2003 04:30 PM

thanks for the reply, you made good points, and i do agree hehe, just reading into the movie too much :D

any ideas on the smith scenario i suggested?

im just tryin to get my head round the movie hehe

Posted by: sufu on July 18, 2003 08:43 PM

Hi,
I saw the movie twice before fully getting it... (fully equatesto bout 95%). There are somethings i dint get... in the architect scene he gives him 2 choices, quoting him... " The door to your right leads to the Source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the matrix, to her and to the end of your Species." I got the salvation of zion stuff 24/16 etc... now the other part.. he says save trinity and end of ur species... whats that???? the matrix is still there!!! i mean zions destroyed but the matrix is still there.. so how is it the end of our species... Another thing... why did Smith want to get to the source... Smith claimed he wanted everyth... but then y did he goto the source,... the oracle had said earlier corrupted programs can either go into exile or go back to the source wheere they face deletion... So y did smith goto the source?? his cloning thing was ok... he is like(or gonna become as i've seen from Matrix Revolutions preview) the neo for machines... my reasoning hes the only machine who has learnt how to grow... wven tho its not in the physical sense... seee each of the 6 neos evolved into bewter versions.. so after being freed smith wants to get evryth. and the matrix in a matrix theory sounds all interestin but i dunno what it will turn out to be... cant wait for Matrix3..
Can i pleeezze get a reply... ANY1????

Posted by: Nikhil on July 19, 2003 10:20 AM

Okay i just found this site today and i am really disgusted at how some people have proceeded to butcher this movie.

IN response to wolverine's post a few days ago. Before i continue i think everyone needs to realize that most of the characters in the movie is a program, meaning that they're creator has a specific purpose for them and nothing else. The oracles only concern is the future. "There's only one thing i'm concerned with new, the future. ANd belive me the only way to get there is together".. Basically she has to lead him to the core where he has to make a choice. She is not against neo or tryin to sabotage him, it's just htat "we are all meant to do what we are meant to do" simple.

I've also heard a couple of people on this site mention that the 5 previous "anamolies" chose to save Zion, that is absolutely false. The architect said "This will be the 6th time we've destroyed zion and we are becoming exceedingly effiecient at it". This quote tells us that the previous versions choose to save trinity, meaning that all the previous anamolies were in fact neo and not someone else. IF i'm wrong please let me know but i'm pretty sure thats how it goes.. ALthough if thats true i don't see how they can destroy zion 5 times and nobody know whats goin on.

Posted by: osiris on July 21, 2003 04:54 PM

A few quick words:

In response to Sufu: I don't have any better ideas on Smith than you do. I'm very confused about him and his role.

In response to Osiris:

First, I'm not sure what point of mine you were responding to. I don't think I ever suggested that the Oracle was against Neo or trying to sabatoge him. I simply meant to say that whatever her goal, she needs to know if Neo trusts her. Who knows though, maybe she is "reprogramming" him with the food.

Also, I disagree with your analysis of "the choice." The 5 previous anomolies chose to return to the source. Whatever the One chooses to do, the machines destroy the existing Zion. The way that the 5 previous anomolies "saved" Zion was that, by returning to the source as instructed, they were allowed to free 23 people from the matrix to repopulate Zion.

The 5 previous anomolies could not have chosen to save Trinity, the returned to the source, not the matrix. Trinity is a new element in all this. Remember the Architect saying, "Your five predecessors were designed on a contingent affirmation meant to cause a profound attachement with the rest of your species. While the others experienced this in a more general way, yours was much more specific, vis-a-vis love." This is the Architect's way of saying that this is the first time the anomoly was in love with one specific person. There wasn't a Trinity issue until now.

Finally, no one knows whats going on because the 5 previous anomolies have returned to the source. This allowed everyone attached to the matrix to continue to live in the matrix, oblivious to the real world. The machines always killed the quarter million or so people who had been living free in Zion. Then 23 people from the matrix (chosen by the One) rebuilt Zion without the knowledge that this was a cycle.

Thats my understanding of it Osiris.

Posted by: wolverine on July 22, 2003 09:45 AM

To NIKHIL:

By choosing to return to the matrix, "to her and to the end of your species", Neo is foregoing the opportunity to return to the source. The One returning to the source is necessary to keep the matrix running. The Architect says that failure to return to the source will cause a system-wide failure killing everyone attached to the matrix. How long this will take, I don't know, but that is how Neo's choice might result in the end of the species.

As far as Smith returning to the source, I've heard that theory before but I'm not sure thats what he wanted to do. I thought he simply wanted to kill Neo and at that moment, Neo was on his way to the source. If he did want to return to the source, maybe he need not fear deletion because he has evolved beyond that. Just some ideas.

Posted by: wolverine on July 22, 2003 09:55 AM

IN response to wolverine.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess i missunderstood where you were goin with your explanation of the oracle but i understand now. So now let me try to explain this and tell me if i get it right. Within the matrix there is 1% of the population that does not accept the program. This is due to an inherent flaw of an unbalanced equation. The machines realize that they cannot get rid of this 1%/Anamoly so they attempt to control it with "The One" program? Where by all the anamolies are removed from the matrix {Trinity, NEO and so on) and into zion, where they can later be destroyed because of the choice that "the one" makes with the architect. "THe one" then selects 23 folks to rebuild zion and the loop continues. OK i think i got it right this time. I got confused cause i was reading all this other crap and how the Merovingi (i know i spelled it wrong) was a former "The one" and choose to save his girl Persephene. Does anyone have any facts to back this up, i couldn't find any.

Posted by: osiris on July 22, 2003 04:27 PM

take a peek on this site:
i found it very possible but i leave it there for discussion:

http://www.xzaust.com/index.php?page=matrix

Posted by: RobMex on July 27, 2003 08:48 PM

Another doubt, which i have found nobody has questioned it, is...

almost at the beginning of the movie when neo feels that agents are coming, I hear that agent smith is the one who delivers a package with the earpiece, but then when neo says that agents are coming, there's no smith anymore but other 3 agents which he fights and then smith gets to the scene and says to his copy that it's all happening like before.. so who delivered the package then ??

Posted by: RobMex on July 27, 2003 09:32 PM

i need learning software

Posted by: ekkswamy on August 22, 2003 02:46 AM

i need learning software

Posted by: e.k.kumaraswamy on August 22, 2003 02:50 AM

I just wanted to comment on the EMP theory. I do not agree that the EMP from the other ship would have put Neo into a coma. Reason being the EMP does not affect living things. EMP induces a large amount of current into elecronics and pops components. EMP does not Suck out the electricity as someone stated earlier. The electrical arcing was more than likely special effects. If the directors were trying to stay true to physics then this cannot be true.

Posted by: Chuck on August 31, 2003 11:31 PM

did zion get obliterated because neo activated an EMP which pissed up all the ships so no counter attack could be made?

Posted by: hooky1742 on September 3, 2003 03:47 PM

Does anybody know of any websites where you can dowload the matrix reloaded for free?

Posted by: gattsu on September 9, 2003 12:55 AM

You guys say how the agents were meant placed there to find Neo and basically escort him to the Architect to restart the Matrix. If this is so, though, the ending of Reloaded doesn't make sense!! Neo had entered the door to with Morpheus and the Keymaker to meet the Architect and restart the system. Why did the agents still try to kill/harm them?? They were OBVIOUSLY trying to stop them from entering that door and even shot at them and killed the Keymaker in the process. Some of this just doesn't make sense!! I thought the machines NEEDED Neo to restart the system, so they could have their "precious human body energy"... why try to stop him then???

Posted by: Allen on September 26, 2003 04:54 PM

What film are you talking about?

Posted by: John on September 30, 2003 10:10 PM

I think Smith's ability to copy himself came from the first film where Neo enters him, and in the same way Neo gains the ability to sense Smith. I also think that Smith's goals have shifted from his original goals - in otherwords he no longer has the machines' best interests at heart, it has become personal. The Revolutions trailer hints at this ("the program Smith has grown beyond your control. You can't stop him... but I can."). In a sense Smith has become an anomaly for the machines.

Obviously The Oracle is there to help the humans, I guess we'll find out why in Revolutions. She created a set of circumstances whereby Neo had a more viable choice than the previous 'Ones', and so Neo has broken the cycle of restarting the Matrix and re-creating Zion.

The Architect comments on humans' hope and how it can be their strength and their weakness.

I think the plot is hinting at the fact that while the machine control humans, they have certain weaknesses and have come to rely on humans to cure their anomalies. This reliance presents a weakness for the machines and they have learned of ways to manage that weakness. However, thanks to the help of the Oracle, that weakness is finally being probed and exploited.

A great film and a great philosophical puzzle. I guess in Revolutions we'll have most of the answers we seek plus a few questions left over for thought! Looking forward to it...

By the way the trailer's out on the whatisthematrix site.

Posted by: Chris on September 30, 2003 10:22 PM

Think about this :)

Trinity didn't had the choice to go inside the matrix, because Neo has already two choices.
He can choose between two doors, so it is already clear that Trinity would go inside the Matrix, else Neo wouldn't have two choices.

If you have read Simulacra and Simulation, or parts of it, you know that Baudrillard think there are 3 types of realities.
The first is a Simulation of reality (the Matrix)
The second is reality itself (outside teh Matrix)
The third is truth, probably explained in Matrix Revolutions

Posted by: Anomaly on October 2, 2003 02:53 PM

I don't think the emp thing was right either because before he disabled the machines he said he felt them.....

Posted by: Hurley on October 7, 2003 11:35 PM

You guys helped me understand parts of this movie much better so cheers but i dont really understand how smith can be outside the matrix as that hand slicing guy.
explanations??

Posted by: (cough) OBSSESIVE (cough) on October 12, 2003 07:11 AM

by the way it is 12:13 here in the UK and all i can say is only yanks would analyse a movie this much. You need to relax and have a mud bath or sumthin.
(i will give prizes if sum1 knows wot 'dog and bone' means in rhyming slang!)

Posted by: (cough) OBSSESIVE (cough) on October 12, 2003 07:16 AM

I have a question based on a sequence in the "Matrix Reloaded". It pertains to the mission to cut the power to the building that the Keymaker and Neo are at. Why are they still talking about a 5 minute window, after the power is turned back on in the building? If they were to open the door with power on, it would detinate the bomb. So wouldn't cutting power be a more important task to do, and wouldn't it also throw the 5 minute window out the window? I know this doesn't make much sense, I just need a better explanation of what that sequence was all about.

Posted by: Greg on October 16, 2003 02:14 AM

I READ THE ENTIRE THREAT !!!

To Matt: great thoughts ! I like the way you think.
Same to Scott: Again, taking the visible and going beyond by using logic.

In general there are some philosophic minds out there. Nice to see, since philosophy is a hobby of mine. Brief statement to those who wonder and are not able to understand the time and effort spend on this movie: it is ok to be different. So you do your thing, we do ours. May ignorance be cured by tolerance.

Now back to business:

A few things that HAVE NOT been addressed yet.

1) A TRUE FLAW in the movie in my eyes is the fact that Neo as well as all members of the Nebachudnezzar all the sudden have the connector implants in their skin, clearly visible in the cave, and sex scenes. While not monumentally important, these should not be there anymore, because they have been removed in the first MATRIX and prior, when each individual was rescued and the muscles were stimulated through electrotherapy. Just a mistake, I guess.

2) HOW CAN OBEJCTS TRANSEND REALITY?
Now my friends, one thing that is explainable only by another is the fact that all the sudden objects can pass from the matrix to the real world and assumingly vice versa. The spoon as mentions in the very beginning of the thread and the object from the oracle (please explain – I know it was part of the computer game that I never played. In general a brief summary of insights gained from the computer game would be nice to fill in some plot holes). Objects can transcend from one reality into the next. So if objects can, couldn’t machines? Now I am leaving the path of pure logic. Could programs transcend into the real world and manifest themselves? Consequences? In theory reality could be the matrix for machines, right? It is not and does not help the plot , just theoretically my friends.

3) SMITH and NEO
Because if 2 is true, it is not so hard to believe that Smith imprints himself into a human and vice versa, Neo imprinting himself into Smith. The mirror set up of the two is quiet obvious. They have an equal yet reversed role. One strives for power in the matrix to bring this to an end and the other seems to take actions in the opposite direction. So, the reason why Neo stops the machines in the end is the same why Smith was able to imprint himself into a human, both transcended their own kind and became a melted symbiosis of both human and machine. Neo stopped the machines, no doubt about it. Both are evolving but where does this lead? Logic tells us , their power is going to increase in both worlds. Both seek domination over the other and the power to “free” himself and more or less their kind. Smith is a virus in the matrix, which is equal to being human on earth. Only one can prevail. Either the humans or the Smiths.

4) How to determine the true age of Matrix v3.reload5?
In M3 we are at the 5th reload. Remember the rate at which humans are set free is exponential. The true age for the matrix is the time it takes to free 250,000 people (assuming that deaths and births are equal out.) That is only true measurement of the beginning and only true number we now. If you can calculate how it takes to free 250,00 people, then you know how old the matrix v3.reload 5 really is. I assume not too old. Oh, and don’t we know when A.I. was born and the war started? And didn’t Morph. say something about what year he believes we are in? Assuming that Mv1 and Mv2 crashed within a few years , there you go another way of finding out. (Year Morph. said minus (Birth A.I. + a few years war + M1 +M2 ))/5 = bingo average life span of one matrix


5) The counsel could be the initial 23, but do not have to be at all. First of all there are not 23 at the table (I counted them) and second, while it seems strange that they are old and everybody is young in the matrix, it is not that strange in our world (see current political leaders in any country). They could also be the 1,2 3rd generation of off springs Other old people just put their ass to bed early and remain out of sight. Did anybody see old people in ANY other scene? How many? That would question that all old people are must be the initial 23.

6) The counselor
He knows more that he says. He is not the ONE from Mv3.rel.4, but he is aware of the interdependency, which in my eyes has been really stressed in the movie. That will be the major plot in Revolutions.

7) BTW there will be multiple revolutions, because the title is plural. So machines, the Smith, Neo , humans are all going to get up and fight. Sweet !

8) A SMITH EXCERCISE
All of the Smith can duplicate themselves. How many are there? Theoretically, as many human as are plugged into the matrix – 1 (the guy that jumped back into reality). Just because we did not see all of them, doesn’t mean there are lots of them. He duplicates himself base on need, not just for the purpose of it. How long would it take to take over the world? That is an interesting exercise. There are about 64 (just kidding – I use 64 for mathematical purposes) visible. That is 2^(number of copying events: CE) for CE=7 2^7 =64. Meaning after 7 copies of all smiths over and over , we have 64 smiths. Now 2^33 = 8,589,934,592 ca. 8 billion people. So after 33 times duration of copy process + finding new target = 10395 seconds = 174 min. = 2 hours 54 min. +/- a few hours to travel continents, Smith could take over the world. NEO time to act !

9) TO SmithIsTheOne: GOOD POINT! The red pill/candy in Reloaded is the choice the oracle talked about. The choice that has been made, the choice that determined his fate. The choice to wake up, the reminder , the unbalance in the equation. Everything after that, according to the oracle, is just a question of understanding why. The oracle loves the candy and is “here” for the same reason: CHOICE. She chooses to wake up / rebel as well. Maybe in her own way he hopes that Neo maybe is more than the one. After all, she made a believer out of her. Believer of what? Choice, is the answer. She knows it all and things will change!
I also want to know! SMITH IS THE ONE (quote): 5)Who is the guy being escorted out of the room when Neo and the gang visit the Morivingian? They take the time to have Neo look at him, then to have whoever it is look at Neo. Another factor to consider...
Like SmithIsTheOne’s idea that machines needed a human to kill all humans. Although unlikely, still a nice thought. But since there was a war , I assume they did fine with killing humans.

10) Matrix in a matrix? Neo trapped in the source after meeting with Architect?
No and no. The plugs, the fact Bane looks like Bane but is Smith and the fact that Cypher in the first part begged to be re-introduced into the matrix are all signs for one matrix only. Neo trapped inside on the other hand could be a possibility. Trinity never entered the matrix the last few moments are all B.S. While possible that does not feel right and to be quiet honest , it is necessary to show that Bane and Neo are equal yet opposites. That means it had to be the real world. So double No!

11) To dragon_385: the twins are not German look you French bastard lol just kidding. I am German but live in US, so I saw the American version. Very interesting how the different countries
have to choose other names and accents and still keep the story intact. IN Germany they often do
a piss poor job translating the original. What does the name BAINE stand for from origin point of view. History buffs and philosophy co-geeks *smile*

12) SmithIsTheOne: thanks for answering the Tank question. What a fool the actor. Way to go!
For a bit of acting 250,000 and crying about it . That is what you get for being ungrateful idiot!!!

13) SnOoPdOg: Yo, is it as hard to write this way as it is to read it? Sorry buddy. Your stuff was skipped. I recognize your skill , but much like a dog can lick his balls, life goes on and I waste no time on thinking about it. Mastering English is hard enough. I skip the slang. No offense, but if you want to be heard speak simple and clear.

14) Why 16 female and 7 males, besides that all males should have multiple women. Just kidding my female entities of mysterious beauty and non logic thinking *lol*

15) ;dfkvhb;fadkgjvh;afdjkv: if that is ture window = pi = 3.14 or 314 second. Good CATCH !!!

16) good question Larry Laffer quote 4)Seems to me that the agents don't have a clue of what the ONE mean and whats his purpose for the architect otherwise they would have led him to the source first time they got him. But something else bothers me with this one,
In the first movie they want the codes to enter and destroy Zion, i don't see the reason for this since the one was not found yet by the arcitect, why destroy something he needs to complete his task?
Why destroy the Keymaker before he completes his task?(AGENTS)

any answers ?
IS ZION A REFUGE INSIDE THE MARTIX? Isn’t the control room how to get into Zion very similar to the architects room or any matrix reality. (I am still opposed to matrix in matrix – but zion in matrix all the sudden could be a possibility)
PS: Your English is good Larry. English is not an exact language. It is bastardized to the
point , where you do not even know what is correct and what is not.


17) Retards die faster and they are no challenge. Maybe their energy is not the best kind either.

18) Zion is old . Very old. So either build, or discovered. Result is the same. Since the exit out of the matrix remains the same, maybe the path to Zion is also predetermined. It seems that way. The machines of the humans are human controlled and not A.I. controlled. So I assume humans build them.

19) PI fits the bill. Great concept!

20) chaz: good point. Mr pompus and his wife – could have been former ONE & girl friend. Now became exile programs. The fact that she said (paraphrased) “ he used to be more like you…” is a strong hint. Good point . I think that is a good explanations. Either way they crave like vampires what they do not possess: life , love, emotions

21) Purpose is another big concept. That makes faith, destiny, choice and purpose (besides Mr Pompus’s causality) the big ideas we need to think about. What gives the A.I. purpose?

22) Agents prevent anybody but THE ONE to pass through. Thus are a natural
control system. Survival of the fittest. And only the fittest contains what is needed to add to the matrix during a reload.

23) Every time the camera goes through a TV screen a change of reality is made evident. PART I: The training room , the interrogation room,… PART II: what does the path through a TV screen mean in the architect’s room. There was no reason for it, or was it?

24) I was not convinced that all the Neos in the Arch..’s room were previous ONES, but two things made me change my mind: 1) the fact that they said :2?,3?,4? And that all of them said “Bullshit” at the same time which was countered “denial , humans most predictable emotion “ or so by the Arch.
That means all of them differ except in denial (and then some other things).

25) Programs can survive and remember previous reloads. Smith’s quote in the beginning and Mr Pompus Prick comment about surviving previous versions are proof.

26) If the Neos in the Arch. Room are the previous ONES, then Merovingian is not a previous ONE, which also makes sense, since we can write programs. Maybe he is a programmer . wow – new thought . Or he is ONE from Mv2 before the 5 NEOs. Oh my mind hurts !

27) WOW it took a few months until somebody caught on. Ahmed good job! Yeah HOW DO OBJECTS TRAVEL unless Zion and Matrix are in the same reality ?

28) Pompus Fu*cks name is Merovingian. To Chris: Close but not convincing. Hades etc… true. Merovingian could be seen as the overlord of demons , ghost, vampires, programs gone bad. The oracle does not lie (assumption). He is old , but he is a program. Only because he did not possess the key maker before the ONE could reach the Arch. Merovingian wants power. Leave the matrix as is. Now remaining why’s? 101 on the floor – why? Who has been escorted out ? Merovingian a former ONE?

29) Good job Sebastian!

30) From ignorance in paradise/heaven to awakening . Neo falls out of heaven or is Adam leaving the heavens. Heavens = white , bright like the door, like the hall way like the archt. Room. Neo = dark, counter figure. If Archt = God , then neo = devil. Creation and counter creation. So neo could be seen as either JESUS or the Devil , depending which position you give to the Architect. I read a great article about it , but can’t find it anymore. And the fact that we are on the 6th reload is too close to the bible to be missed. Neo is not THE THE ONE. But a creation. The one he finds or fights will bring “day”7. Peace. (wild speculations)

31) MOST IMPRESSIVE: Posted by: Spoul on July 9, 2003 10:05 AM !!!!
Trinity the mother of THE ONE . That is why the arch. Human duplication like. Merovingian is definitely a old program if not the one from version M2
Scoot, Larry, Matt your thoughts ?

32) MAJOR SPOILER (I guess that is it – the movie REVOLUTIONS!):
Posted by: osiris on July 22, 2003 04:27 PM
take a peek on this site:
i found it very possible but i leave it there for discussion:
http://www.xzaust.com/index.php?page=matrix
Posted by: RobMex on July 27, 2003 08:48 PM

Posted by: Big T on October 16, 2003 05:24 PM

Who is the guy that is taking away before they see Merovingian. ANSWER : The trainman. See link (no spoiler offcial promo picture of Revolutions)
http://www.forum-anbieter.de/matrix/beitrag_3350_37.htm
Scroll all the way down to see the picture.

BTW this side is German and contains MAJOR SPOILERS . All sorts of pictures etc. Be careful.

I am digging for more answers.

big t

Posted by: big t on October 16, 2003 05:38 PM

http://webpages.charter.net/btakle/matrix_reloaded.html
\
I really like that explaination. A bit more religious than others.

Posted by: big t on October 17, 2003 03:32 PM

http://webpages.charter.net/btakle/matrix_reloaded.html

I really like that explaination. A bit more religious than others.

Posted by: big t on October 17, 2003 03:33 PM

ANSWER TO THE NUMBER 23:
Humans have 46 chromosomes (23 pairs). Half of a person's chromosomes come from the mother and half from the father.

source: WebMB http://my.webmd.com/content/healthwise/80/19844

So The architect , being the father or god of humanity/ matrix, basically copies, clones humanity by selection 23 people. I believe that the mother donates the other half, being choice, to make humanity wholesome.

Posted by: big t on October 17, 2003 04:06 PM

I'm not an expert on the matrix subject, but i do know that so far these movies are great. I admit i was confused in the end with the discussion between the architect and neo. I think he was trying to say that there is no perfect mathematical formula to make every human mind accept the matrix and the machines could only get it as good as 99.9% leaving .1% or "The ONE". This means that if the architect didn't do something about that .1% it could eventually destroy the matrix. I'm not sure if the path of the one is planned by the architect or not. Because if you think about it the same mathematical equation used for the choice to accept the matrix or not, can also be applied to the choice the one has to make as to which door he will choose. 99.9% of the one's (or neos) who reach the architect will choose to try and save trinity but eventually .1% will prevail and choose the salvation of zion.
I'll also admit that i am confused about neo stoping the sentinal in the end. I like the explanation about Neo using the energy inside him to produce an EMP charge with the same energy the machines use to survive, but that wouldn't be logical because then all the humans could do that. I don't think that there are two matrix's that would really be hard for the audience to understand, even harder than reloaded. I guess i'm lost on that one and i'll have to say that we'll see what happens in matrix revolution.
Oh and by the way for all of you who keep saying that the matrix movies were made the way they are because hollywood wants to make money. You're right, but everyone already knows that. Yes you're right movies are created so people will pay to be entertained by them. All I'm saying is contribute more to this discussion board than irrelevant information. Who knows one of you might take a guess at some of these questions and eliminate my confusion.

Posted by: Paul on October 18, 2003 01:25 AM

Hi Paul,

The asnwer to why Neo is able to affect the machines is that he transcended the human on one side and machines on the other side world. He crossed over , just like Smith did. So both are more advanced than anybody else. When looking at the film frame for frame it is not clear where the energy comes from or if it even is an EMP. Neo simply stops them. He overwrites their "minds" just like Smith did to the human.

What are the consequences?
1) Both world are not real, if reality is what we consider our world to be. Both are part of a greater whole. (possible but unlikely for story telling and us vs them reasons. too man points where made that there are two different worlds. One real with emotions and one fake and calculated)
2) Neo and Smith have evolved to super kick ass beings. Both could take over the world. Smith is a threat and needs to be taken care of. Afterwards, change of order and begin NEW WORLD ORDER.

Many people wrote good things about that, but also read the extensive explanation of

http://webpages.charter.net/btakle/matrix_reloaded.html

later

Posted by: big t on October 18, 2003 12:12 PM

Just wanted you guys to know that I have figured the whole thing out and you guys are going to laugh when you see the last film. An e-mail to Warner Brothers confirmed our theory. One of you has it right.

I will be posting the info on my site soon.

Posted by: joeymas on October 20, 2003 09:19 AM

My guess is that this is the first time an agent has ever chosen exile over deletion - unless, the Merovingian is an ex-agent instead of an ex-One. Agents are designed to be arguably the most powerful program in the matrix - what happens when one goes rogue? I think Smith could pose a big threat to the Merovingian if he wanted. It would be interesting to see those two go at it (although it does not appear that they will).

What do you think happens to the Matrix if Neo does die? I know it appears that Neo is immortal but the Merovingian obviously thinks he can kill The One. The machines have survived other Matrix crashes, but it would be interesting to know what happens to the prophecy, etc. Would they just reload the Matrix anyway, or would the systemic anomaly reappear?

Why does the Merovingian want the Oracle dead? If she fufills her job, Neo goes back to the source (which I thought it was pretty clear she explained his job was to rejoin the source) and then is not a threat to the Merovingian. Also, doesn't he want the Matrix to be perpetuated by being reloaded? The safest way for him to stay powerful is to maintain the status quo and not have to worry about somebody totally screwing up the nice little system they've built. If Neo was somehow able to destroy all the machines, the Merovingian dies, too.

BTW - I've really enjoyed reading this board. This is really good stuff. Took forever, tho. :)

Posted by: DaveIsOverlord on October 20, 2003 10:12 AM

OH MY GOD!!
i cant stand this anymore. why do you need to understand this film so much?
why dont you just wait for the next one to come out?
anyway i dont see how you cant understand it!
it makes perfect sense if you ignore the bits that are unimportant. they are there to confuse you. there are bits that are more inportant than you think e.g Smith!
RANT OVER

Posted by: (cough)OBSESSIVE(cough) on October 20, 2003 04:37 PM


Ok, you guys can go check it out.

It is in the members section @ http://classybroads.con

Posted by: joeymas on October 22, 2003 03:49 PM

Ok, ok... I will post the answer to the matrix here.


YOU NEED A GIRLFRIEND!!!!!!

Posted by: joeymas on October 22, 2003 03:52 PM

I just have a prediction for the 3rd movie. I think Neo is going to make a deal with the architect. Neither the machines or humans can exist while smith is around, So I think they are going to make some sort of deal that will allow neo to destroy smith yet still let the humans live. Maybe he convices the machines somehow to "accept the other alternatives to existing" the architect talked about. I also have a question. Before smith copied himself into bane (right before he picked up the phone) what was it bane and the other guy were carrying that "they had to make sure it got there" was it a disk or something, what was so important about it?

Posted by: cnfsed on October 22, 2003 08:05 PM

Hmmmm.... Everyone here has certainly made me think more about the whole concept of control and free will.

This is what I reckon....

Neo is only human but it is dawning on him, more and more, that he is able to control and influence the matrix. Whenever he has met with the Oracle she always offers him something to eat. I think this changes his 'matrix code' in some way - gives him the ability to do extra stuff (perhaps!). The reason I say this is because of the coma he goes into at the end of Reloaded. He realises that the 'unplugged' world outside the matrix is still within the matrix. He realises this and was able to 'sense' the sentinels. But the fact that he is still in the matrix overwhelmed him and he went into a coma. The shock of realising that he is still trapped and the whole thing is a lie and a game.

Well maybe... what a great movie! You would not get this much talk over Scary Movie .

Posted by: Riyaz on October 28, 2003 10:25 PM

The idea that the Oracle changes NEO's code is interesting. Perhaps the cookie he ate in the first movie allowed him to come back to life from being shot (an upgrade if you will). And the candy he eats in the second movie perhaps gave him another upgrade... as said by the architect, "That was quicker than the others". The candy may have enlightened NEO, thus facilitating him to make the right(?) decision when choosing between the two doors. By accepting the candy, the Oracle says, "you have a made a believer out of me", which could imply a decision that was not made by the previous "ONES". The Oracle acts as a mother... caring and nurturing, and perhaps has become symapathetic to freeing the humans, despite negatively affecting herself if NEO is to succeed in destroying the Matrix... somewhat like a martyr. The architect is named aptly for his analytical thinking. Numbers and formulas are what are important to him. The Oracle may have been originally created to help NEO reboot the system, but she too herself may have been changed. By integrating herself into human psychology/sociology, she may surpassed or altered her own programming and now sympathizes with humans. And because she is a seperate program from the Matrix, the Architect has no control over her. You can even sense from the Architect that there is some dissapproval of the Oracle, like she has strayed away from her original purpose/programming (i.e. to simply facilitate the ONE to reload the Matrix). She may have only led NEO along to help him understand that he needs to get to Matrix's core not to reload the system, but to finally destroy it. The cookie, and the candy she gave to NEO to eat is what makes the difference between choosing which door to go through. Think about it, why is there so much emphasis on CHOICE when the Oracle offers NEO the candy. These are just my ideas and I am not offended by anyone who wants to critique them (even retardedly), but any comments on this would be great.

Posted by: David on November 3, 2003 01:01 AM

while some of you are very smart, none of you see the genius that is NEO. HE CAN'T DIE! agent smith shot him, he stopped breathing, and then he got up and kicked ass again. FREE WILL PEOPLE. he controls his existance. physical laws have stopped applying to NEO. would you please stop deabting this point. the only things left to talk about is how fucking awesome the final chapter will be tomorrow night! and maybe what the hell is this third world they have eluded too?

Posted by: ben on November 4, 2003 01:05 PM

while some of you are very smart, none of you see the genius that is NEO. HE CAN'T DIE! agent smith shot him, he stopped breathing, and then he got up and kicked ass again. FREE WILL PEOPLE. he controls his existance. physical laws have stopped applying to NEO. would you please stop deabting this point. the only things left to talk about is how fucking awesome the final chapter will be tomorrow night! and maybe what the hell is this third world they have eluded too?

Posted by: ben on November 4, 2003 01:05 PM

while some of you are very smart, none of you see the genius that is NEO. HE CAN'T DIE! agent smith shot him, he stopped breathing, and then he got up and kicked ass again. FREE WILL PEOPLE. he controls his existance. physical laws have stopped applying to NEO. would you please stop deabting this point. the only things left to talk about is how fucking awesome the final chapter will be tomorrow night! and maybe what the hell is this third world they have eluded too?

Posted by: ben on November 4, 2003 01:06 PM

Quick question...
What exactly is the architect? Is he a human that built the matrix? Or a machine that built it? or a program?

Posted by: luke on November 4, 2003 11:10 PM

I just want to say that i have read almost every post here...and there are just a few things i would like to add...
in one of the posts up there someone said that zion was a place for the .1% who woke up from the matrix and where picked up by ships and brought to zion.... i like the theory....at first i thought.. well...why not just kill the humans as they woke up...and then i realized that if they killed every human as they woke up....they would somewhere along the line kill "the one" when he woke up....and they need him to reload the matrix....so the oracle and all the other programs are designed to lead 'the one' to the architect...thus zion is not a matrix within a matrix....and morpheus and trinity are not 'programs'....they are just mislead humans...trustin in the blind faith of the 'prophecy' which came from the oracle...ultimately the machines wrote the prophecy....

and one more theory of mine....i don't think the machines have another way of surviving if the human race is deystroyed...i think the architecht was just bluffin....and neo called his bluff... so ....the machines NEED the matrix....they can't survive without it.....if it crashes....thats it....no more machines....which why i think in the 3rd movie....the machines won't deystroy zion....they can't...if they do.....the cycle will be broken....because all of the other "ones" have chosen to save zion....so if they deystroy zion...there will be no humans left to pluck the next "one" from the matrix....and keep him alive and train him....train him ultimately....to once again.....reload the matrix....

i hope it made sense....feel free to criticise

Posted by: Bigj85 on November 5, 2003 09:52 AM

i just watched the final episode and i am so upset. it did nothing to explain all the questions we were asking. it just started neo woke up did his thing the zionians did their thing the squidies did their thing and then it ended. i mean agent smith was the only person that i liked in the 3rd film. i kind of thought that zion was part of the matrix and the merivingian was maybe THE ONE in an earlier version of the matrix. i seriously think that the movie sucked when it ended i was like "THATS IT" i won't ruin it for those of you who haven't seen it but i think it needed another hour to tie up the loose ends.
lates

Posted by: THE OTHER ONE on November 7, 2003 03:53 AM

I watched Revolutions on Wednesday and have been thinking alot about it since. I left the cinema quite content as I had seen an impressive action movie that alot of time, effort and even more money had gone into.Since then I have become more and more frustrated that there were so many questions unanswered and so many more created. I suppose the one thing The Wachoski brothers have done is leave a massive gap for speculation and theorizing. Which i'm sure will continue until they decide to explain it for them selves.
I find it hard to completely hate this movie as I have such affection for the story itself. I suppose we can only except that they wanted to tell a story and this is how they wanted to end it. After all, who are we to decide how it should end.

Posted by: Lloyd on November 7, 2003 12:28 PM

Okay, first of all let me say I loved the first two movies. I thought they were great and I didn't have too much trouble understanding them (after watching them a few times). But I have to say I was a little disappointed in the third movie at first.

Maybe I was just sentimental and didn't want Trinity to die, and I wanted Neo to just beat the crap out of Smith. I left the theater pretty let down with the ending.

Now I've been thinking about it for a few days, trying to understand why Smith exploded when he (took over?) Neo and why that caused all the other copies to do the same. I would really like to hear what the rest of you think, but here's what I came up with.

1. Neo was fighting the Smith that was copied onto the Oracle. At the end of the fight Smith says, "Everthing that has an beginning has an end." and he was confused by it. I think that whenever Smith copied himself onto a host a part of the hosts code still remains (which would explain why the oracle, Seraph, and the little girl were still alive at the end) and that the Oracle was saying that through Smith. Neo heard that and allowed Smith to copy onto him and destroyed him from within (much like the first movie). But I still don't understand why the Oracle, Seraph, and little girl would still be alive after that but somehow Neo dies.

2. My second explanation would be that at one point, the oracle told Neo that Smith was his opposite. Neo was the positive and Smith was the negative. Maybe this happened when Neo destroyed Smith in the first movie. Maybe when Smith took over Neo he made positive and negative one, it became to unstable so Smith was destroyed. This would explain why Neo didn't survive but I don't like this explanation.

Also, I read somewhere after the second movie came out that there would never be another Matrix movie and we would know why after the Revolutions. But at the end it completely left it open for another sequel (the architect asking the oracle how long she thought the peace would last). And I thought the little girl was supposed to not have a purpose but she was the one who made the sunset for Neo at the end. Plus the oracle said that they would see Neo again, suggesting that he would be reborn again and the cycle would start again (another movie).

If my explanations don't make sense then please try to explain the end to me because I really want to like the movie. I still wish Neo had just beat Smith out right, but maybe the Wachowski's know better than I do.

Posted by: D on November 7, 2003 03:19 PM

Ok, I might be able to help you out a bit.
First off, in reloaded, what did the archatect want? He wanted neo to go to the source so the matrix could "relaod" itself. Well you have to consider how Neo had been plugged into the Matrix when he was fighting Smith, he was in the Machine city, he was at the source. The Machines simply waited until Smith enterd Neo so they could relaod the matrix. I'm guess that because the most powerful Smith had been destroyed, and they were all somewhat connected, it created a chain reaction.
Also whenever the matrix is reloaded, all of the people within it sort of just start over, their past memory is earased and they start again, so I'm sure it is the same with the programs. Obviously the Merovingian has been around since the first version. Anyways I hope that helps abit. Not sure if I'm right though
Oh I almost forgot Sati wasn't really pointless, she was a program, and like all programs had a perpose, she was a program fro beauty. Thats why he father went on about how she is the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen and how she made the sunrise and it was so beautiful.

Posted by: turbo on November 7, 2003 05:20 PM

Ok, I might be able to help you out a bit.
First off, in reloaded, what did the archatect want? He wanted neo to go to the source so the matrix could "relaod" itself. Well you have to consider how Neo had been plugged into the Matrix when he was fighting Smith, he was in the Machine city, he was at the source. The Machines simply waited until Smith enterd Neo so they could relaod the matrix. I'm guess that because the most powerful Smith had been destroyed, and they were all somewhat connected, it created a chain reaction.
Also whenever the matrix is reloaded, all of the people within it sort of just start over, their past memory is earased and they start again, so I'm sure it is the same with the programs. Obviously the Merovingian has been around since the first version. Anyways I hope that helps abit. Not sure if I'm right though
Oh I almost forgot Sati wasn't really pointless, she was a program, and like all programs had a perpose, she was a program fro beauty. Thats why he father went on about how she is the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen and how she made the sunrise and it was so beautiful.

Posted by: turbo on November 7, 2003 05:20 PM

Please explain the whole thing about choice in this movie and why every human in the world didnt die after Neo went through the "wrong door"

Posted by: Wormz1 on November 7, 2003 06:59 PM
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